SCOTUS to rule on 2nd Amendment

Bugfatty300

Buddha Squirrel
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Does the Second Amendment guarantee an individual´s right to bear arms? SCOTUS will tell us next week. Needless to say I'm little excited and anxious.

http://www.washtimes.com/news/2008/jun/17/second-amendment-haze/

This month, the U.S. Supreme Court is expected to decide District of Columbia v. Heller, the most important Second Amendment case in the court's history.

More than five years ago, six Washington, D.C., residents challenged the constitutionality of the city's 32-year ban on all functional firearms in the home. If the challenge is successful, it will mean the court has revisited and perhaps reversed United States v. Miller, the second most important Second Amendment case in the court's history. For nearly seven decades, gun controllers and gun rights advocates alike have struggled to apply the murky doctrines propounded by Justice James Clark McReynolds in his 1939 Miller opinion.

Does the right to keep and bear arms belong to us as individuals? Does that right extend to private use of arms? Or does the Second Amendment simply authorize the states to arm the members of their militias? The court will have to answer those threshold questions before deciding whether the D.C. gun ban is constitutional. Given the bizarre history of the Miller case, its dubious analysis and inconclusive result, about the only guidance Miller offers is how not to go about setting a Supreme Court precedent.

In Miller, two mobsters, Jack Miller and Frank Layton, were indicted for transporting a sawed-off shotgun across state lines, in violation of the 1934 National Firearms Act. Neither Miller nor Layton was charged with firing the gun or committing any crime involving use of the gun. They were indicted for a technical violation of the registration and tax requirements of the Act.

When the lower court held that the NFA violated the Second Amendment, the U.S. government appealed to the Supreme Court. There, the case took a strange turn. The court gave Miller's counsel, Paul Gutensohn, a mere two weeks to submit his written brief and prepare for a grueling interrogation by the justices. Gutensohn, who was court-appointed and had not been compensated, replied he had received neither the government's brief nor a copy of the trial record. He said he wanted to file a brief, but doubted he could travel all the way to Washington, D.C., for oral argument.

The court then offered Gutensohn a delay until late April. Apparently exasperated, he declined by telegram: "Suggest case be submitted on [government's] brief. Unable to obtain any money from clients to be present and argue case." Gutensohn's proposal - that only the government's brief would inform the court, with no response by the defendants - was arguably malpractice and surely contrary to his clients' interests. He should have asked that new counsel be appointed and that the argument be further delayed if necessary. That would have offered a semblance of due process to Miller and Layton. More important, it would have ensured that the crucial Second Amendment question would get a full briefing and fair hearing before the court. In any event, Miller and Layton had no written brief to support them, and no legal representation at oral argument.

When it was all over, the Supreme Court reversed the lower court's holding that the NFA violated the Second Amendment. The high court's conclusion hinged, not on the defendants' qualification for militia service, but on the particular weapon that was the subject of their indictment. Here's the crucial passage from McReynolds' opinion: "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a [sawed-off] shotgun ... has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument." Thus, Miller applies to the type of weapon, not to the question whether the Second Amendment protects all individuals, only members of a militia or just states.

McReynolds' refusal to resolve that key question triggered a debate that lasts to this day. In the end, Miller was sent back to the lower court to determine whether a sawed-off shotgun had military utility. Before a new trial could be conducted, Jack Miller was shot and killed. Frank Layton agreed to a plea bargain and was sentenced to five years on probation.

Fortunately, Heller presents the Supreme Court with another opportunity to declare its allegiance in the battles between the written and "living" Constitutions. The text of the Second Amendment clearly protects the right of "the people" - not states, not militias, but "people" to "keep and bear arms." By striking down the D.C. gun ban, the Supreme Court can affirm that basic principle and restore the Second Amendment to its rightful place of dignity within the Bill of Rights.

The US vs Miller is the bases of almost all federal gun control laws and centered around whether or not a sawed-off shotgun was useful in combat and thus a suitable "militia" weapon.

General consensus among the 2nd Amendment gurus is that Miller could have proven his case and won if he had simply bothered showing up and show that short barreled shotguns were useful combat weapons and suitable for "militia" use.

Gun control advocates predict defeat:

The nation's leading gun control group filed a "friend of the court" brief back in January defending the gun ban in Washington, D.C. But with the Supreme Court poised to hand down a potentially landmark decision in the case, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence fully expects to lose.

"We've lost the battle on what the Second Amendment means," campaign president Paul Helmke told ABC News. "Seventy-five percent of the public thinks it's an individual right. Why are we arguing a theory anymore? We are concerned about what we can do practically."

While the Brady Campaign is waving the white flag in the long-running debate on whether the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to bear arms or merely a state's right to assemble a militia, it is hoping that losing the "legal battle" will eventually lead to.
 
My guess is that all 9 Justices will prove they aren't strict constructionists. The clause is "shall not be infringed", but I bet they will allow the states to infringe to some extent. Anyway, if the majority does give true meaning to "shall not infringe", I've already got an ex-felon lined up as a client to challenge one of Texas' infringing laws.
 
That felons are barred from owning firearms? I'd call that an infringement if the felon is freed and out of the justice system and not a fugitive.

I guess it depends on what they consider "infringement." It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that any type of "ban" is a clear infringement. My hope is that if the ruling is for individual rights and DC ban is overturned then it would put alot of US cities like New York and Chicago at odds with the latest SCOTUS ruling and reverse some of their restrictive gun control laws and also hopefully restrict any future "assault weapons bans" from Congress.

As for a reversing NFA laws and the 86' machinegun ban? Won't happen, though it should IMO.
 
Common consensus is the court will strike down the DC gun ban but allow certain regulatory steps within reason. I think this will be a great blow to the assault weapon and high capacity magazine ban.

Doubt machine guns post 86 will become legal to purchase though.

~Chris
 
I've got a loaded .357 on my nightstand that says "bring it on cops, I have killed more for less". Sometimes jail is worth the crime.
 
I expect it'll be a mixed decision, but with the effective result that it'll be guaranteed as an individual right, but with heavy state limitations allowed. Effectively not much different from how things are today. I'd be very surprised if a majority got together to rule that the Second Amendment does not recognize an individual right.

My guess is that all 9 Justices will prove they aren't strict constructionists. The clause is "shall not be infringed", but I bet they will allow the states to infringe to some extent. Anyway, if the majority does give true meaning to "shall not infringe", I've already got an ex-felon lined up as a client to challenge one of Texas' infringing laws.
No right is absolute. :p I don't think banning ex-felons, especially ones who committed violent crimes, from owning firearms is an unreasonable limit. (And I'm pretty conservative on Second Amendment issues)
 
The Court may punt and restrict the ruling to DC, thus leaving open the question of the regulation allowed by the feds and states.
 
No right is absolute. :p I don't think banning ex-felons, especially ones who committed violent crimes, from owning firearms is an unreasonable limit. (And I'm pretty conservative on Second Amendment issues)
"Shall not be infringed" sounds pretty absolute to me - the 2nd doesn't have any sort of language that would support a reasonableness test. Maybe a rewrite to the 2nd would be in order assuming the so-called strict constructionists on the Court have the guts to, you know, actually strictly construe.
 
Are you declaring your intent to commit murder if things don't go your way?

Fortunately I live in a state with a law appropriately named "Make My Day" law, which basically states that if you come on my property (which I own) you are fair game if uninvited. If you do your research the S&W .357 is a handgun developed to penetrate armor in the early 1900's. Granted I only have 6 shots (5 because I keep a ghost round in it, meaning the trigger needs to be pulled twice as a safety), but only one should suffice to sever an artery wherever I shoot you in general. On a side-note I also have 6 tourniquets and 8 israeli bandages I have "acquired" from work in my basement. And on a side-side-note I am a light sleeper so try any funny business, I am an incredible marksman.
 
No right is absolute. :p I don't think banning ex-felons, especially ones who committed violent crimes, from owning firearms is an unreasonable limit. (And I'm pretty conservative on Second Amendment issues)

So the government can declare someone a criminal and then take away their guns?

I disagree with felons losing voting rights for that reason: political opponents can be declared felons to take away their vote.
 
Fortunately I live in a state with a law appropriately named "Make My Day" law, which basically states that if you come on my property (which I own) you are fair game if uninvited. If you do your research the S&W .357 is a handgun developed to penetrate armor in the early 1900's. Granted I only have 6 shots (5 because I keep a ghost round in it, meaning the trigger needs to be pulled twice as a safety), but only one should suffice to sever an artery wherever I shoot you in general. On a side-note I also have 6 tourniquets and 8 israeli bandages I have "acquired" from work in my basement. And on a side-side-note I am a light sleeper so try any funny business, I am an incredible marksman.

Okay, but you intend to shoot at cops if they try to enforce an anti-gun law?
 
Well whenever they come for mine i won't be thinking give the guns to them or not I'll be thinking should i get my rifle out for precision or the shot gun for wide spread destruction?

But seriously i don't own any guns, but i don't understand how the system works anymore who is supposed to make sure that the SCOTUS doesn't do anything unconstitutional, becasue as far as i can see getting rid of part of the Bill of Rights is unconstitutional.

And guns don't kill people, people kill people.
 
Fortunately I live in a state with a law appropriately named "Make My Day" law, which basically states that if you come on my property (which I own) you are fair game if uninvited. If you do your research the S&W .357 is a handgun developed to penetrate armor in the early 1900's. Granted I only have 6 shots (5 because I keep a ghost round in it, meaning the trigger needs to be pulled twice as a safety), but only one should suffice to sever an artery wherever I shoot you in general. On a side-note I also have 6 tourniquets and 8 israeli bandages I have "acquired" from work in my basement. And on a side-side-note I am a light sleeper so try any funny business, I am an incredible marksman.

Police officers with a warrant supersede that. They're not trespassers effectively. So in order to have things your way, you'd have to break the law and kill innocent law enforcement officers.
 
No right is absolute. :p I don't think banning ex-felons, especially ones who committed violent crimes, from owning firearms is an unreasonable limit. (And I'm pretty conservative on Second Amendment issues)

There are two reasons why I don't support thinks like taking away voting, 1st amendment or 2nd amendment rights from convicted felons:

1. I believe a right cannot be taken away.

2. If a felon has done his time in prison and is declared fit to reenter society then why should he not have all his right restored? If the state can't trust them with firearms then why are they set free into a society where firearms are easibly obtained?
 
Police officers with a warrant supersede that. They're not trespassers effectively. So in order to have things your way, you'd have to break the law and kill innocent law enforcement officers.

The problem is that sometimes police (usually drug enforcers) get the wrong house and do not properly announce themselves when they come bashing through the door or window with weapons. In that case the occupants have no other reason to believe they are being attacked and if they defend themselves against the police with force then all I can say is tough luck for the cops who are maimed or killed. The innocent occupant will no doubt be shot down in a hail of bullets so there isn't many defendents around who can argue self-defence against errant police because they are all dead. This can be compounted by the fact that anti-drug units are usually plain clothed and wear ski masks to protect their identity.
 
Are you declaring your intent to commit murder if things don't go your way?

It's murder if we kill them for breaking into our house and pointing weapons at us but it's an "in-policy shooting" if they shoot us while we are unarmed in bed. :mischief:
 
Fortunately I live in a state with a law appropriately named "Make My Day" law, which basically states that if you come on my property (which I own) you are fair game if uninvited. If you do your research the S&W .357 is a handgun developed to penetrate armor in the early 1900's. Granted I only have 6 shots (5 because I keep a ghost round in it, meaning the trigger needs to be pulled twice as a safety), but only one should suffice to sever an artery wherever I shoot you in general. On a side-note I also have 6 tourniquets and 8 israeli bandages I have "acquired" from work in my basement. And on a side-side-note I am a light sleeper so try any funny business, I am an incredible marksman.

Isn't the military supposed to screen the crazies out?
 
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