Seymour Hersh: Osama’s Death Narrative is a Big Fat Lie

[BvBPL]

So Seymour Hersh has a piece in the London Review of Books that attacks many of the facts provided in the generally accepted narrative about Osama bin Laden’s death. He says, among other things, that Pakistan (and possibly Saudi Arabia) knew where bin Laden was; that the US was tipped off by an informer (who received the award) rather than by CIA intelligence work; that the goal was specifically the assassination (or murder) of bin Laden; that there wasn’t a firefight and that instead the US was the only side firing weapons and that bin Laden died in a hail of bullets; that bin Laden was an invalid and was essentially under house arrest at the time; and that bin Laden was not buried at sea but instead dismembered and spread across the mountains.

So those are a bunch of differences between the common narrative and Hersh’s account. They are dramatic.

What do you think? Does Hersh’s account have the ring of verisimilitude or does it sound false?

--

Not everyone thinks Hersh’s story is on the level. Michael Morell, writing in the Wall Street Journal, basically says the Hersh story is BS. He’s not alone. A lot of people are saying that Hersh’s reliance on anonymous sources means his story can’t be verified and that makes the story questionable.

I urge caution in reviewing Morell’s article. Morell comes across as a party mouthpiece in his piece. One of the primary complaints Morell has is this degree of deception would only come from an epic conspiracy. Which seems silly to say since as deputy director of the CIA his job was to run epic conspiracies.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see what people think of the complaints made by others as to Hersh’s piece.

--

In my mind, there are two core types of divergences: geopolitical and operational.

Hersh’s claims include allegations that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia knew where bin Laden was and were effectively protecting him from the US. If true, that means those presumed allies of the US are not as friendly as one would think. The geopolitical ramifications of Hersh’s allegations could be huge. I think most people, at least most people here, would readily accept that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not true blue allies of the US. That said, if these two states were protecting bin Laden then it really casts a different light on that trilateral relationship.

Hersh also claims that the operation itself went very differently from how it was originally reported. According to Hersh, the soldiers were basically told to shoot bin Laden on sight. These operational aspects may be more difficult to prove than the geopolitical facets. I can’t imagine the question of whether bin Laden was smashed by a hail of bullets or two precision shots being decided without a photo of bin Laden or the like.

There’s a lot of additional talk about this readily available via an internet search.

I highly recommend WHYY’s On the Media's interview w/ Hersh and additional coverage.

Carlotta Gall in The Old Gray Lady thinks some details of Hersh's account ring true.

James Kirchick, writing in Slate, doesn't buy Hersh.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Hersh’s claims include allegations that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia knew where bin Laden was and were effectively protecting him from the US. If true, that means those presumed allies of the US are not as friendly as one would think. The geopolitical ramifications of Hersh’s allegations could be huge. I think most people, at least most people here, would readily accept that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not true blue allies of the US. That said, if these two states were protecting bin Laden then it really casts a different light on that trilateral relationship.

Wow such a massive mind blowing revelation
Next thing will be a massive mind blowing revelation that President Reagan funded, armed and trained Osama.

Hersh also claims that the operation itself went very differently from how it was originally reported. According to Hersh, the soldiers were basically told to shoot bin Laden on sight. These operational aspects may be more difficult to prove than the geopolitical facets. I can’t imagine the question of whether bin Laden was smashed by a hail of bullets or two precision shots being decided without a photo of bin Laden or the like.

Due to the fact our "allies" were supporting BinLaden no way the raid would be kept a secret. That more or less make capture, interrogation and then quiet disposal of Osama once everything of use can be gained from him a bad idea. The quick death by gun fire was no doubt thought out in advance, else it would have created political problems.

 

[Azale]

One thing people point out in regards to Hersh (mostly when they're trying to defame him) is this bizarre bit of reporting Hersh did on the deep Opus Dei conspiracy in the US military. In general, his reporting seems to have slid in quality over the years.

I remember reading his story on Assad gassing civilians last year. Was that ever confirmed? Or disproven?

I want to trust the guy, especially since most of his detractors that I know of personally are military establishment apparatchiks with an axe to grind. I don't know if I can though.

 

[innonimatu]

Why is it that these Review of Books seem to be the only magazines currently willing to publish long pieces of journalism about politics? Too bad that there is a lack of sources on this one, this is someone's version of the events, it would be interesting to know whose.

 

[Berzerker]

they killed him

good

but I like Mr Hersh nonetheless

good enough to keep an open mind

 

[r16]

on the whereabouts of Bin Ladin and question of whether Pakistan and S.Arabia keeping him away from US . Certainly yes , and with American approval . Shooting on sight ? Hopefully American soldiers are tidier with the trigger , now that US Policemen never fail when they have a Black guy they can shoot .

the Syrian gas attacks ? Was designed to blame Turkey for carrying out a chemical attack so that America could topple Esad and make Ankara the king of the Middle East . Barack Hussein , who is a glorius dude with no spine , took a look and was alarmed by the presence of Russian "volunteers" who might have marred the glorious reputation of the USAF by scratching the paintwork of some US jet . As such even blame Ankara game failed .

 

[downtown]

Why is it that these Review of Books seem to be the only magazines currently willing to publish long pieces of journalism about politics? Too bad that there is a lack of sources on this one, this is someone's version of the events, it would be interesting to know whose.

Oh, I think there are lots of places that aren't Book Review publications that do this....but most of them are digital.

The general consensus in my office seems to be that the work of Mr.Hersh has been slipping for a while and that this recollection of events seems to be unlikely (especially based on his sources), although the idea that Pakistan knew where Bin Ladin was seems hardly implausible. I'd need to read more to form my own opinion though.

 

[Tahuti]

The Illuminati exists! I have proof!

"What proof?"

Reliable anonymous sources!

 

[Zelig]

The general consensus in my office seems to be that the work of Mr.Hersh has been slipping for a while and that this recollection of events seems to be unlikely (especially based on his sources), although the idea that Pakistan knew where Bin Ladin was seems hardly implausible. I'd need to read more to form my own opinion though.

Vox has been particularly critical of Hersh and the piece, there are various sources supporting at least part of the story:

NBC: Pakistani Asset Helped in Hunt for Bin Laden, Sources Say

New York Times: The Detail in Seymour Hersh’s Bin Laden Story That Rings True

Columbia Journalism Review: The media’s reaction to Seymour Hersh’s bin Laden scoop has been disgraceful

 

[Antilogic]

I recall some contemporaneous threads on CFC authored by Cryptic Snow and Neomega (maybe? it's been awhile...) which made similar allegations. I think they got banned because of a particularly aggressive posting style.

I haven't followed Hersh's career in great detail, but I do know he has broken some pretty big scandals involving the military such as Abu Ghraib and My Lai. Some of the details he reported to support his argument were previously reported and I think reliable, such as the tension between the US and its "allies" in the Middle East through the Wikileaks document dump from the state department. So I'm not completely discounting him or the story.

I thought one interview was particularly funny with a guy who claimed to be on Seal Team Six, who first disputed Hersh's account and also claimed he shot bin Ladin twice and then shot him on the ground afterwards. Sounds kinda like an execution, which supports the story.

 

[dutchfire]

that Pakistan (and possibly Saudi Arabia) knew where bin Laden was;

Would not surprise me. Question would be how many people there, and how high up, knew.

that the US was tipped off by an informer (who received the award) rather than by CIA intelligence work;

Possible. If they were tipped off, they might not admit this to protect the informer. I assume/hope they used more than a single source of information, so the CIA intelligence work could have been to back up the original informer.

that the goal was specifically the assassination (or murder) of bin Laden;

Likely. Keeping him alive seems like a lot of trouble (is he wearing a bomb vest?), with little reward. If I were president, a hit job would be my preference.

that there wasn’t a firefight and that instead the US was the only side firing weapons and that bin Laden died in a hail of bullets;

Hail of bullets is plausible, see previous answer. There might still have been a firefight. Does it matter?

that bin Laden was an invalid and was essentially under house arrest at the time;

Don't know, don't care and have no opinion

and that bin Laden was not buried at sea but instead dismembered and spread across the mountains.

See previous answer

 

[Cutlass]

I do think that elements of the Pakistani government knew where bin Laden was. But in the case of Pakistan, saying that elements of it knew something is not the same thing as saying that the government knew about it. Political control of the military and intelligence agencies seems tenuous at best. Other than that, the story doesn't seem to bear much weight.

As for the 'alliances' with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, as the old saying goes, with friends like these, who needs enemies?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I recall some contemporaneous threads on CFC authored by Cryptic Snow and Neomega (maybe? it's been awhile...) which made similar allegations. I think they got banned because of a particularly aggressive posting style.

Nah IIRC Neomega had an epic flipout/breakdown in OT where he basically told the entire staff (and most of us) to eff off.

 

[bhavv]

Poor Osama. He was a saint.

 

[ParkCungHee]

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-was-bin-laden-killed/

Analysis of the Hersh story by a veteran intelligence operative.

The tl;dr version is he suspects the story is at least closer to the truth, and has the nuanced ring of how these things tend to go.

 

[r16]

...he has broken some pretty big scandals involving the military such as Abu Ghraib and My Lai...

which kinda makes him a credible source when Uncle Sam needs an earth-shattering truth to be "known" ; makes it far more plausible that something new is needed when there is this bunch of "Catholics" who stab the "WASP" Americans in the back . By the way any readable links to the Opus Dei thing as claimed by Hersh ? This is almost the moment people should be ranting about how he is in the payroll of Obama which reputedly he doesn't like much ...

 

[Agent327]

Hersh’s claims include allegations that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia knew where bin Laden was and were effectively protecting him from the US. If true, that means those presumed allies of the US are not as friendly as one would think. The geopolitical ramifications of Hersh’s allegations could be huge. I think most people, at least most people here, would readily accept that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not true blue allies of the US. That said, if these two states were protecting bin Laden then it really casts a different light on that trilateral relationship.

Talk about conspiracy... Your conclusion doesn't follow at all from anything Hersh claims. In fact, he insists that locating Osama was not the result of any US tracking, but information provided by Pakistan. Which is in direct opposition of your conclusion.

One thing people point out in regards to Hersh (mostly when they're trying to defame him) is this bizarre bit of reporting Hersh did on the deep Opus Dei conspiracy in the US military. In general, his reporting seems to have slid in quality over the years.

I remember reading his story on Assad gassing civilians last year. Was that ever confirmed? Or disproven?

Use of chemicals by the Assad regime was investigated independently and confirmed. It was followed by a plam to destory such chemicals in which the Assad regime cooperated. althoug there were some doubt whether all chemical supplies have been destroyed. Of course, the Assad regime continues to bomb, torture and imprison its population.