SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[Optional]

Lurker's comment:
I wonder if there would be any way to stop an AI in Despotism from whipping so much? Or would you always get those heaps of rubble like in VMXA's picture, even if you waited with attacking?

 

[Sparthage]

Lurker's comment:
I wonder if there would be any way to stop an AI in Despotism from whipping so much? Or would you always get those heaps of rubble like in VMXA's picture, even if you waited with attacking?

I've done a few things that will stop them. Unfortunately, it means making them pay for the rush or not rushing at all.

 

[GamezRule]

Got the save, going to take a look at it and then come back for discussion on what to do.

 

[vmxa]

I think that you got exceptionally lucky to wipe out two towns with two archers and one warrior.

I wish I had a true log, but lucky maybe so. It was more like 4 archers and a warrior in the end. I lost 2 archers and the warrior taking the dutch out. The thing is that they would go down most of the time, but with varing degrees of loss.

Archers would keep coming out as vets, they would be making units slower and they would be regulars. In the end, they will die. Waiting for them to get bigger and stronger, while pinning me in a corner, helps them.

They will be first to any possible contact and those contacts will help them and not you. I had 40 minutes to kill while I was listening to an internet radio show, so I played to 1600BC.

Like you say, it could have turned out a lot poorer and I did not get the SGL or an MGL. So it may have turned out even better, who knows.

TheRat and NP have shown that aggression tends to do better in AW, I always prefered caution. Anyway just an FWIIW. Good luck

 

[Optional]

Lurker's comment:
The settler factory has the needed improvements now to work, but I wonder if it's helpful to churn out 1 or 2 more workers first. Just look at what Hamburg is still working:

I know there are 4 workers around Silk Town, but if you feel you have too many workers somehow - that's a big if - you can always join one in a newly founded town instead of waiting 10 turns for growth.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I would say Settler>Worker>Settler for a few rounds, we need settlements to support workers, we have to control unit costs when we are researching our own techs. It gets easier with the GLib, but right now we need to be careful.

 

[GamezRule]

I am confused on what we should do, I have gotten a "radical" idea of building up a force and conquering at least the two northern cities.
Don't yell at me...

 

[TheOverseer714]

You need at least 4 Archers and a Spear. Plus, you must defeat at least 3 Archers incoming. I'd say get the next settler down before, as the unit costs would kill our research. I know you want to go a-smiting, but do it right. Figure late in your turnset.

 

[Optional]

Lurker's comment:
For a settler build the ideal management of Leipzig is not as straightforward as in Lanzelot's example. The reason is that for a 4-turner Leipzig has to start at size 4.5, but here Leipzig started at size 4, so an extra turn will be needed to gather 30 shields.
Maybe to make best use of this extra turn Leipzig can give Hamburg the irrigated wheat tile for 2 turns:

This will speed up the growth of Hamburg a bit, and gather extra beakers towards Philosophy. Philosophy will come in even quicker once the Silks are hooked up and worked.

 

[Lanzelot]

I would say Settler>Worker>Settler for a few rounds, we need settlements to support workers, we have to control unit costs when we are researching our own techs.

Exactly. I'd also say get a couple of towns up first, and worry about improving them later. However, 4 workers at Königsberg is way too much. One should go to Hamburg, and another one should already road towards new city locations.
And: don't join workers to towns! They are much too precious at this early point!

You need at least 4 Archers and a Spear. Plus, you must defeat at least 3 Archers incoming. I'd say get the next settler down before, as the unit costs would kill our research. I know you want to go a-smiting, but do it right. Figure late in your turnset.

Hey, when I wanted to go on a rampage, you guys didn't let me, saying 4 archers were too few... Now the Dutch are even better defended than 30 turns ago, so 4 is definitely not enough... Better wait until we have more towns.

Lurker's comment:
For a settler build the ideal management of Leipzig is not as straightforward as in Lanzelot's example. The reason is that for a 4-turner Leipzig has to start at size 4.5, but here Leipzig started at size 4, so an extra turn will be needed to gather 30 shields.
Maybe to make best use of this extra turn Leipzig can give Hamburg the irrigated wheat tile for 2 turns:

This will speed up the growth of Hamburg a bit, and gather extra beakers towards Philosophy. Philosophy will come in even quicker once the Silks are hooked up and worked.

Optional is right. If the SF does not start at 4.5, it won't work! Give the wheat to Hamburg, that will gain extra beakers, grow Hamburg faster and get the SF back on track.

Also wealth in Königsberg is a waste. (A shield is worth 4 gold, so better produce something, even if it's only 1spt.) I vote for building a curragh! Here is the reason:
I still have the other one of my "crazy ideas" in the back of my head: Republic...! If we knew, that this is a continent (with probably 3 at most 4 civs on it including us) and if this continent does not have coast/sea access to the next continent, then the other AIs won't find us until Navigation! (The AI is pretty bad at discovering other continents across ocean.) This is still a very long time! And it would have two very important consequences:

Let's assume for a moment, that it's only us, the Dutch and one more on this continent and it's separated by Ocean. This would mean that

• The GLib is basically worthless. (We'll take out the Dutch soon, and then we are left with only one contact. The other contacts come only after Education. (I assume we don't go looking for them via suicide galleys.) So no free tech from the GLib => Pyramids are the better choice.)
• War weariness is not an issue for a very long time. (By the time we become a Rep, the Dutch will probably be gone already, and one other war can easily been done in Republic.) So Republic would pay off! (Research speed at Republic is about twice as fast as on Monarchy, especially as we have half-priced libraries.)

These points lead me to the conviction that we should build two curraghs and sail around our continent quickly to find out whether it has any coast/sea connection to other land masses. (And if we find out it has, then we will at least gain the necessary contacts to make the GLib worthwhile, and we can choose Monarchy then.)
After Königsberg has build at least one curragh (perhaps two) it can then join the other towns in unit production.

DWetzel: I think chances are still pretty good for Philosophy. (On Monarch you usually always get the slingshot, and our Iron Working took about the same time as Code of Laws does in the slingshot.) And even if we are beaten to the free tech, it's not wasted. We need Philo anyway (if we go for Rep... ) and having the SGL sit around for 10 more turns doesn't matter.
And also: recall my general rule to always do the cheaper tech first (if researching everything yourself)! Philo+Lit will be faster than Lit+Philo especially now that we have a settler factory).

PS: one final important point: if we do find out we are on a separated continent, then I would even prefer CoL as our free tech! (Gets us to Republic sooner.) After taking CoL, we would then research Masonry (should be less than 10 turns now with so many towns), take the Pyramids and then start right away on Republic.
Monarchy on the other hand would still take ages: three more prerequisites, before we can even start on it.

Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

PS: one more idea: instead of letting Hamburg have the wheat for two turns, we could also disband the warrior in Leipzig for two shields. This would also get the settler in 4, then let Leipzig produce wealth for 1 turn, and we are back on track.
We will be without iron for a long time, so the warrior is not worth the 1gpt it's currently costing.

Edit: forget it, stupid idea, we are not paying unit upkeep at the moment, and we'll have a new town soon...

But I just looked at the save: this is indeed a very strangely formed landmass... I do think, if we stop exploring and keep quiet in our remote corner, we can run a Republic for a long time without having any problem. (At least for long enough to outweigh the disadvantage of a second anarchy by far.)
I'd say, return the spearman to the wine hills of Amsterdam, then it can kill a couple more Dutch archers. (But it looks like the AI doesn't attack, when the spear is on a mountain. The odds are probably too bad. So just fortify it on a hill.)

 

[Northern Pike]

Let's assume for a moment, that it's only us, the Dutch and one more on this continent and it's separated by Ocean. This would mean that

The GLib is basically worthless. (We'll take out the Dutch soon, and then we are left with only one contact. The other contacts come only after Education. (I assume we don't go looking for them via suicide galleys.) So no free tech from the GLib => Pyramids are the better choice.)

Lurker's comment:

I don't know the details of this game, so this is a general observation, not advice on what you should do. But a lack of contacts at the moment doesn't mean the GLib is useless at all. In AW, you can assume that the other continents will be ahead of yours in technology. So as long as you avoid discovering Education yourself, and eliminate the civs you've met before they develop it, you can set yourself up for a huge windfall when eventually you meet two overseas civs. This is the only way the GLib can take you past Education, occasionally far past, on that tech line. It's not the same as getting a steady stream of techs as the civs you know learn them, but it can be even better.

It's true that you can't build ships better than galleys without going beyond Education, but the overseas civs will come to you in time.

 

[GamezRule]

Okay, things to decide in my turnset...

What to do with Konigsburg, Where to send settler, What to research, Starting the SF, and other things I can't think of...

As far as the settler goes I say we should send it NE of Berlin.

 

[Lanzelot]

Okay, things to decide in my turnset...

What to do with Konigsburg, Where to send settler, What to research, Starting the SF, and other things I can't think of...

As far as the settler goes I say we should send it NE of Berlin.

You mean NW, do you? Take a look at the current dotmap. We should build the towns in the order in which the settlers have the shortest travel time.
NC7 (the town by the whales) can be reached in two turns. This should be the first choice. Meanwhile a worker should road south to the tobacco tile. From there NC4 can be reached in one turn and NC5 in two turns. Another worker will improve two plain tiles for Hamburg (do the plains before the grasslands! Plain+road+irrigation has the same 2/1/1 production as grassland+road+mine and it takes two turns less to improve!) Using the roaded plains, a settler from Leipzig can then reach NC3 in two turns as well. Then, once a road is in place between NC7 and NC6, NC6 can be reached from Leipzig in two turns as well.

Königsburg: my vote goes to a curragh.
Research: The chance for a free tech is too good to miss, so definitely Philosophy.

 

[Optional]

You mean NW, do you? Take a look at the current dotmap. We should build the towns in the order in which the settlers have the shortest travel time.
NC7 (the town by the whales) can be reached in two turns. This should be the first choice.

Lurker's comment:
I was thinking the same thing. Here is the same dotmap, but made from the most recent save (I had made it already before Lanzelot posted).

Spoiler :

The bright yellow dot, as pointed out by Lanzelot, is easiest to reach. Also has workers nearby for making improvements, so it's an easy choice.

Landmass is still a mystery. Pangaea? Continents? Archipelago? Out of curiousity alone I would build a curragh!
I filled in 'Barracks?' on my previous pic because DWetzel had made a shout for that, but I hadn't thought about it myself.

 

[Lanzelot]

Lurker's comment:

I don't know the details of this game, so this is a general observation, not advice on what you should do. But a lack of contacts at the moment doesn't mean the GLib is useless at all. In AW, you can assume that the other continents will be ahead of yours in technology. So as long as you avoid discovering Education yourself, and eliminate the civs you're met before they develop it, you can set yourself up for a huge windfall when eventually you meet two overseas civs. This is the only way the GLib can take you past Education, occasionally far past, on that tech line. It's not the same as getting a steady stream of techs as the civs you know learn them, but it can be even better.

I agree completely. But still I think that for a strategy like this, it is not necessary to build the GLib yourself. Just capture it at the right moment and enjoy the "tech elevator"... Could be that in some circumstances this turns out to be difficult, but not impossible.

It's true that you can't build ships better than galleys without going beyond Education, but the overseas civs will come to you in time.

The question is only: how long will it take? I think, even if we get only 50 turns of "undisturbed Republic", we can research so many techs in that time, that it will outweigh the second anarchy.

Let's for a moment compare the following two scenarios:

• Scenario 1: We research Philo in 10 and take CoL as free tech. Then we do Masonry in 6 (if we want the Pyramids), and aftwards Republic in 25 (perhaps even faster). So in around 40 turns we can be in Republic. Let's be pessimistic and say we have 50 turns before war wearines becomes untenable. Makes a total of 90 turns, 40 of which will be spent in Despotism, and 50 in Republic.
• Scenario 2: We research Philo in 10 and take Literature. Then we need 5 for CB, 10 for Mysticism, 12 for Polytheism, 22 for Monarchy (rough estimates). (Add another 6 turns, if we decide to take the Pyramids after all.) So this is around 60 turns, before we can be in Monarchy. So we will be 20 turns longer in Despotism than in the scenario above. Consequently, by turn 90 we have spent roughly 60 turns in Despotism and 30 in Monarchy. And with Monarchy, research really sucks... Compared to scenario 1 (40 Despotism, 50 Republic) we will have fallen so far back in terms of technology, that it is even worse than having a second anarchy!

The only drawback of my plan is that we will have to research two expansive optionals (Monarchy + Republic) instead of only one.
It's a little gamble: if war weariness turns out to not be an issue for a long time, we have gained a lot. If it sets in early, we may loose a large part of what we gained, because of having to research both techs.

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment:

You don't appear to be considering unit support with your plan, nor the fact that mps will no longer give happy faces, so increased lux slider.

 

[Lanzelot]

lurker's comment:

You don't appear to be considering unit support with your plan, nor the fact that mps will no longer give happy faces, so increased lux slider.

The SF will produce 10 more towns in the 40 turns before Republic. By that time unit upkeep shouldn't be that critical anymore. (Also we can ICS the former Dutch lands, if necessary. Reduces upkeep and can be used for science farming.)
And: with only 1-2 contacts (which is the prerequisite for the entire Republic plan) we don't need a large army. We can concentrate more on libs and marketplaces in that case.
However, with many early contacts you are right, in that case we should go for Monarchy.

 

[DWetzel]

I agree completely. But still I think that for a strategy like this, it is not necessary to build the GLib yourself. Just capture it at the right moment and enjoy the "tech elevator"... Could be that in some circumstances this turns out to be difficult, but not impossible.

It depends a great deal on what sort of landmass we have, no? Which we don't know.

The safer move is to just take TGL and play it as a conventional game. I might be interested in a no-GL game after this one, but I think TGL (and Monarchy) is by far the safer, more conventional, and almost certainly "right" move.

 

[DWetzel]

The SF will produce 10 more towns in the 40 turns before Republic. By that time unit upkeep shouldn't be that critical anymore. (Also we can ICS the former Dutch lands, if necessary. Reduces upkeep and can be used for science farming.)
And: with only 1-2 contacts (which is the prerequisite for the entire Republic plan) we don't need a large army. We can concentrate more on libs and marketplaces in that case.
However, with many early contacts you are right, in that case we should go for Monarchy.

So, the plan would essentially be to wipe out the Dutch, go Republic, hope for no contacts until something like Military Tradition (which basically implies that we are on our own island or can utterly wipe out any contact fairly quickly), and then go sailing off in our rowboats to capture the Great Library?