[BTS] Shadow Game - Immortal

[Nick723]

Hi All,

New to the forums, have re-taken up Civ IV having played it back when it first came out...

Was never any good, but self-isolation seems like a good time to start a shadow game! I've won a few times on Emperor, so seeing as you guys will be helping on this one, I will try for immortal.

Settings I think are fairly standard, random leader on a fractal map, no huts/events, normal speed, standard size, etc.

I've ended up with Genghis Khan and a nice looking start, at least to my eyes.

My instinct with the scout would be to move NW then probably NE, to see if going towards the pigs would be beneficial. Thoughts?

Ps. I haven't worked out how to upload screenshots to the forum properly, if anyone can point me in the direction of a post that explains how, would be much appreciated!

Nick

 

[krikav]

It's absolutely good times for civ4 now.
Uploading screenshots...? You have managed to attach one, and making it appear in the text is as easy as pushing a button.

 

[krikav]

If you want to be kind, it's usually nice to put the images inside spoilers, so that they don't take up so much space for others scrolling the pages.

Spoiler :

 

[krikav]

Regarding the starting position:

Spoiler :

It's a start that makes one cringe abit, because we both want to settle on that plains-ivory to gain a extra hammer in the city tile. And we want those piggies inside the capitals BFC. (And the riverside corn, ofcourse!)

I think I would move the scout simply NE, as that reveals most of the tiles that would help me decide which capital location is the better one of SiP, NE, N or E (On the ivory).

Tile yields and resource bubbles should be on in screenshots for these purposes I think. Makes it easer to see as much relevant information as possible.

 

[Nick723]

Thanks!

Moving the scout NE reveals nothing of particular interest (at least to my eyes)

Spoiler :

I feel here as nice as getting the extra hammer by settling on the ivory would be, it's more important to have both corn and pigs, so would SIP? I guess the ivory is an ok tile for later on too.

Would you recommend the same?

 

[lymond]

I think on the ivory or SIP is both fine. Looks like a wash on net grass river tiles if my math is right, so SIP should be good (honestly I might be inclined to settle on ivory anyway and go straight to BW first)

 

[lymond]

By the way...the BUG mod:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/download-bug-and-bat-here.274636/

Install BUG/BULL in custom assets (sp mode) and you can use for this game. No need to load. Blue marble is also nice to have installed and can be found there too.

 

[krikav]

It has kind of a big effect really... The first 15 turns (during the turns you build a worker) you will have gotten 60H if SiP, and then you start improving the corn.
If you go on the ivory, you will have that worker done T12, and at T15 you will have gained two turns of improvement on the corn, (Perhaps can be quantified as 6H?)
And you will have gotten yields T12, T13, T14, say you worked the unimproved corn it would ammount to 3F2H per turn, in total 9F6H.
So gain at T15 from settling on ivory would be about 21 hammer-food.

Quite substantial.
And the yield doesn't dissapear after T15 either.

 

[krikav]

Yeah, BUG is a must. Buffy is nice too but bug is a must.
And blue marble, what candy for the eyes! Can't belive I played without it so many years.

 

[krikav]

Hmmm.. yes I think settle on ivory is likely best. And likely mining first (riverside grassland hills are nice!).
But hold research to T5 before commiting.
Just unselect whatever tech you select when queried at the start of the turn and press end turn w/o having a tech selected.

 

[Nick723]

Interesting - I hadn't thought the benefits were so substantial. Inclined to go that way then (settling on ivory).

Lymond - not sure I follow the straight for BW piece? If I go mining -> BW, what would the worker do first? Build a mine? I thought priority was normally to improve food.

Helpful though if I'm learning things, is the purpose of doing this!

 

[Fippy]

Thingy about Pigs is, SIP only makes sense with AH.
So with Agri - AH that delays BW quiet a bit.

Jumbos are an unimportant tile with green river hills around, only 1 more.
But an extra has a rather big effect early, as Krikav wrote.

So you should base your decision on the early tech path, if you want BW (whip, chop) more settle on Jumbos, and tech mining after Agri for some okay hills as 2&3 tile.

 

[lymond]

Sorry...assumption was Ag was a given first. I meant ignore AH and going straight to BW.

On ivory, you can farm corn and put down a river grass mine and build a pretty fast settler at size 2. Then settle W on the river for pigs. (note: cap 2nd border pop will nab pigs for that city so you don't need to be adjacent, especially if you don't plan to go AH for a wihile)

 

[lymond]

I would settle in place. Nothing wrong with having the extra food source.
Settle on the ivory, you have a faster worker but then you lack the pig, when it comes to producing other settlers/workers.

SIP is a very nice place for a capitol.

I don't totally agree here BiC as GK is IMP. The mines will help just as well in producing settlers. The cities I think are almost equal in terms of cottages, plus you could cottage the river hill you don't settle on.

SiP is certainly fine though..mind you. I think on ivory has a bit of an edge in terms of early worker and earlier settler. And ignoring Ah for BW will mean no idle worker turns (other than roading everything in sight) and early chops

edit: If my math is right here, on Ivory has 11 grass river tiles to SIP's 9. Plus 2 river grass hills to cottage later, if desired.

 

[Nick723]

Thanks all - makes sense!

With that in mind, I have settled on the ivory, and scouted around for 5 turns.

Spoiler :

No other AIs yet, but one obvious city site it seems up to the north east.

In terms of tech path, my normal instinct would be to go Agriculture->Mining->Bronze Working. I also don't know if this start calls for earlier pottery instead?

But anyway, it seems first tech should be agriculture? Or am I off the mark?

 

[Nick723]

Sorry didn't see all the posts!

Anyway you can see how I went, hopefully not too disastrous yet!

Lymond - thanks for mods piece, will see if I can sort that now. They don't affect gameplay I take?

 

[lymond]

right

I would ignore the jungle to the S for now as you will avoid it any way. Scout open spaces to E and W first...not too far.

 

[Nick723]

Thanks - so I moved the scout 1 turn more to the east, before bringing him back towards the west. Scouting in general not something I'm very good at (my scouts tend to die a lot) so advice in this area appreciated!

I played on to turn 11, teaching agriculture and starting mining. On turn 11 I met Boudica and Hammurabi, both to the West. Boudica has founded Hinduism. Worker will be done next turn.

Spoiler :

Questions I have to mind:
- where next with the scout? Head west?
- who should I put my espionage points on? My initial feeling is Hammurabi as I think he is a bit of a better techer?
- what to build next in city? (warrior?)

And anything else I missed off I suppose!

 

[lymond]

I would head W/NW for a bit. Basically the idea is to unfog as much land around your cap to find city spots - about ~10 tile radius from city center(less obvious things like the sea or in this case the jungle). Ideally keeping your scout alive to use him for spawnbusting. Trudging through jungle is a recipe for scout homicide, plus you generally avoid settling heavily jungled areas early so it is not a priority. You know enough that the jungle is down there for now. Eventually you will send out spawnbusters.

Hammy probably a slight edge on Boudi but neither are typical targets. If they're your only neighbors for a while then I'd go with whoever is closest. Hammy is fine for now.

Yep, grow to Size 2 on warrior. I think he should finish at or around Size 2 at which point start your first settler. The idea is you will build that first settler with your corn and a grass river mine, which is strong with IMP, plus maybe a little OF (hammer overflow from the warrior build) Looking at a circa 3000BC settler. (note: I playtested about 50 turns and had 4 cities by 2120BC - turn 47 -so this is a strong start for getting out cities fast...i did that without even whipping)

 

[krikav]

Sorry, Agriculture first ofcourse. WIth riverside corn it's so obvious.
I see city#2 site 3W of capital, that can share the corn first and get it's own piggies T50 w/o need of any own culture.
I think it would be connected without road too.

Thought about the scout:
Scout should take care not to move too close to the jungle, as a 2-moving panther will kill it.
Move 1 square at the time looking to reveal possible city sites along the river.
Likely not moving further west than 5 tiles west of the corn, so that it still ensures no nasty barbs spawns in the area around the likely spot for city#2.
Once a warrior is out, scout can continue exploring further out.

I would probably split EP evenly and keep on checking what they do toward me.
I'm guessing that both are probably putting most of their point on each other (High peace weight differance, 3 vs 8. If Hammy converts to some other religion, Boudi will likely kill him.)

Build in city... hmm. A quick barracks for cover warriors could be nice, would enable a solid defense for cheap.
But it's likely best to just get 1, 1,5 or possibly 2 warriors while growing to the desired population (3 I think, corn+2 grassland hills).