[BTS] Shadow Game - Immortal

[krikav]

@lymond
You think settler at size2 is best? The odd number of hammers in that build annoys me.
Corn+2grassland farms yield 4F 8H (4F12H with imp) or 16H/turn while building settler.
Size2 corn+grassland hill only yields 5F+5H (5F+7H) or 12H/turn while building settler.

4 extra yield while building settler makes is like we grow in pop to work a 6yield tile (corn/wheat/pigs/cow/copper). That must be worth it, no?

 

[lymond]

I see city#2 site 3W of capital, that can share the corn first and get it's own piggies T50 w/o need of any own culture.
.

Exactly what I had in mind and what I did in test.

I can't recall but 1st settler was quite fast with corn and mine. Idea is getting that first settler fast since it can be settled with insta route in tile sharing spot due W. I don't think waiting for growth to Size 3 would be any faster but I did not test that. I think there was 1 or 2H OF from 1st warrior build too. I had 4 cities by t47 without even whipping (actually forgot to switch to slavery ..ha)

 

[Fippy]

Pics for 3 different ways to settler building

Spoiler :

#1 started until corn is improved, and grows only on +6 (T27, no warrior before settler comes out).
#2 did grow to size 2 on +3 already (T29)
#3 Standard growth with no settler micro as well, to size 3 while not completing 2nd warrior before (T30).

With IMP there are decent hammers without improved tiles, so if you are fine with delaying the warrior some micro can speed you up.
I would probably consider #2 inferior, might as well grow to size 3 if not micro-ing.

 

[krikav]

That approach in #1 I feel is so difficult to asses if it's good or not. (Here it seems to work nice!)
To stagnate abit on worker/settler during the period while you wait for a food source to be improved.

 

[Nick723]

Wow - incredible analysis and thanks for the explanations.

My instinct would have been to grow to size 3, but I was intrigued by Flippy's option 1 so I decided to try that. I don't think I did it quite right however, as I ended up with the settler one turn later.

I continued Mining -> BW.

Slight issue, is now already a barb archer has spawned, and may impact where to put city 2? I have no idea how long before they'll come into my borders, but I feel a bit uncomfortable going that way. But it may be fine!

Would you still advise putting the second city 3W? I don't see another obvious candidate, there's a spot up to the NE but I don't have either of the techs, and it's a bit far to go without any escort. And would you do 3W rather than 3W1N?

And I guess now finish the warrior and probably build another whilst growing to size 3?

Spoiler :

 

[Nick723]

And what to do with the worker pre BW? I guess the options are to either make another mine 1S, or to farm one of the grasslands. With 6F I could easily work 3 mines, at happy cap, so I would normally do that, but may well be wrong!

EDIT: if city 2 will take the corn for a while, actually maybe I should farm...?

 

[krikav]

I would settle 3W anyway, place scout in position to sacrifice himself to lure the archer in the opposite direction and make sure I get a second warrior out soon too.

 

[lymond]

Your fine. Barbs don't enter until around t50 on IMM. Settle 3W. I'm curious what your scout his doing. He could have been up there spawnbusting all this time.

(By the way, a single unit busts barbs in a 5X5 tile area from the tile it stands on. This is what we mean by spawn busting.

I recall completing the warrior first and still finishing the settler earlier than that. I placed the first warrior on the hill 2N of sugar at the time.

Worker can finish 3rd river hill mine and then move to chop next. This will allow city 2 to work a mine and build a couple of warriors for now, as krak continues with workers and settlers...with some growth to size 3.

krak will get cottages

 

[krikav]

A grassland farm that both cities could use would absolutely be helpful. A problem is though, that these cities will only share two riverside grasslands, and I think that we want to have cottages on both, so that the pig-city can help mature cottages for the capital.
I think I would go for a third mine. I like riverside grassland mines.

It's possible to fill up the food bar in the capital abit, by workering the corn and building something, then alternate by giving the corn to the second city while capital starves down abit working only mines while making settler/worker.

 

[lymond]

I really see no reason to give corn away. Krak is strong with those tiles to produce workers/settlers. City 2 can stay small for now and build some warriors with a mine until pigs come online. Later it can help develop 2 cottages for krak. Pigs/clams later can help with 4 cottages.

Copper reveal will likely be the next spot to target though.

 

[Nick723]

Ah right - yes the scout was out of position running away from a lion most of the time. That said, I was always rather hazy about how spawn busting actually worked - so good to have it explained thanks!

I've teched up to BW, and there's copper to the NW. Not sure how good a city spot it is though, unless there's some food hiding there. Will try to move the scout further up to check.

Next tech options I guess are AH, Archery or Pottery. We'll definitely want AH when the Pigs come in borders, but that's not for another 18 turns, so I'd have time to research one of the others first. That is, unless we want AH for city 3. I'm inclined to think that I probably won't be building any cottages / granaries shortly, so going AH for now would be a solid option?

I think I need another worker here before 2nd settler, is that right?

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Archery would not be an option.

First, let me explain something about teching and sliders. Once you hit deficit research, which happens when you settle City 2, you start running what is called binary research. Get in the habit of running 100% research or 0% research slider (100% tax). There are a few reasons for doing this, but first point is that there is a rounding issue in the game where you lose gpt when running X% slider. 100%/0% eliminates that issue. (As an example in your current game, set your slider to 0% research - not gpt and research [14gpt and 0 beakers] - then up it to 10% [12gpt and 1 beaker]. As you can see it is costing your 2gpt for that 1 measly beaker} Note that even at 0% research you are still making some progress with your default 1 bpt. So what you do is run 0% research until you accumulate just enough gold to finish the next tech. Other reasons include things like meeting more Ais for bonus on techs, funding expansion, and not truly committing to a tech based on things like more land info and later after Writing when you are going for bigger techs and also building libraries. We can go into all that more later, but for now just do the 100/0% thing but do go full research when you have enough.

At your current rate, I think you just need 1t of binary to finish out AH, unless unit maintenance increases. You want have a new city before it finishes so city maintenance will not increase in the short term.

Yep, I think worker is best now. After mine worker can move to forest to chop.Second worker can also chop for next settler.

I would settle copper next. Not a great spot for food but in cases where you have a power tile like copper, you can just settle it for the resource and use that strong tile to build stuff. Spot is awkward but I'm inclined to settle on that hill where the scout stands. City won't grow much for a long time but at least can get one grass farm eventually.

 

[krikav]

I personally would not go for the copper spot now, but it's not a bad option.
And the hill where the scout stands is a perfecly viable spot, but perhap NW of copper will get something better inside that copper city...

But it should be enough time to get AH before next settler finishes, and if horses are in a decent location, copper becomes less critical, and horses might reveal a better city location.
The clam+pigs city looks pretty nice as it is too. Possibly going 1W of pigs to gain more tiles overlap with capital and to get two hills eventually, forgoing clams in inner ring, and just forgetting about fishing for a while.

But a warrior pair should probably prepare to pick a fight with that archer soon, fortifying in a nearby forest.

Do you know if any of the AIs are in your south, or are they both in the NW?

 

[Fippy]

Could be wide barb spawn areas around you (no AI culture when zooming out), and on IMM they should be taken serious already
So yup has to be copper as 3rd city if no horsies plop close.
Archers can do defending but it's difficult attacking with them, barbs might ignore your def. positions and go plunder, on deity we are sometimes forced to use them but here Axes would be so much better.

 

[gavenkoa]

But hold research to T5 before commiting.
Just unselect whatever tech you select when queried at the start of the turn and press end turn w/o having a tech selected.

Wait. How is it possible to deselect tech?

Why wait 5T before starting tech?

Did you mean setting research slider 0%?

 

[gavenkoa]

Other reasons include things like meeting more Ais for bonus on techs

Can you tell me a bit more about this?

I've read that bonus lasts only first 5T. Am I wrong?

 

[Anysense]

You can deselect tech only for the first 5 turns. On turn 6 all accumulated beakers are put into a random tech unless you choose what to research.

 

[sampsa]

@gavenkoa If you had watched 10 mins of any Lain video, you'd know. Just saying.

 

[gavenkoa]

You can deselect tech only for the first 5 turns

I didn't understand how to do that. Prompt with tech selection constantly appeared.

I tried it again with success: select any tech from prompt, go to F6 advisor and click to discovered tech to avoid putting beakers into any particular tech.

On turn 6 all accumulated beakers are put into a random tech unless you choose what to research.

Now I checked it myself. Tnx!

It is interesting to be able to delay selecting of particular tech for a few turns - exploration of area may help you decide which path you should go.

Can we put together another thing? Does the capital border expand on the same turn when you allowed to delay tech? In other words can we wait till border covers the fat cross for the better choice?

 

[Jellybug]

I personally would not go for the copper spot now, but it's not a bad option.
And the hill where the scout stands is a perfecly viable spot, but perhap NW of copper will get something better inside that copper city...

But it should be enough time to get AH before next settler finishes, and if horses are in a decent location, copper becomes less critical, and horses might reveal a better city location.
The clam+pigs city looks pretty nice as it is too. Possibly going 1W of pigs to gain more tiles overlap with capital and to get two hills eventually, forgoing clams in inner ring, and just forgetting about fishing for a while.

But a warrior pair should probably prepare to pick a fight with that archer soon, fortifying in a nearby forest.

Do you know if any of the AIs are in your south, or are they both in the NW?

This doesn't seem like the kind of start you really need to hurry expanding bc there are only three good food sites + a copper site. I second @krikav about going for AH and choosing next move based on horse reveal. Settling 1w of pig and delaying fishing seems appealing, getting you faster pottery. You are behind on spawn busting, though, and it wouldn't be bad at at all to plop down next to the copper and not die. Copper city could even pump out a size one settler for the pig site and allow Karakorum to grow onto cottages.

However, I'm an emp level player, so my advice comes heavily salted.