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[BTS] Shadow Game Time!! Immortal Game To Further up my Game!

Tolosa should definitely not be slow building a worker. What is the purpose of the granary if you stagnate?? Do not stagnate after you have a granary, unless being max size, working max amount of cottages to cool off whip anger. Always aim to fluctuate in size as much as you can (=whip) to get value from granary!

Gergovia should've immediately taken corn to grow. You don't seem to fully grasp the point of sharing :food:tiles, since you constantly work weak tiles in new cities. You are sharing the floodplains to work them all the time, even unimproved! 3:food:1:commerce: is a lot better than 2:food:1:hammers:. Gergovia should start with a granary, it's a much better building than CHA monument. You don't seem to fully grasp the value of the granary. It effectively doubles food, it's insanely strong! A monument is useful only to raise your :)-cap by one, and you are not even close to the :)-cap.

I hope you are not seriously working a 2:hammers:1:commerce:-tile.

I think fishing is better than writing, perhaps also sailing before writing, perhaps even monarchy before writing. Btw it seems like you haven't directed :espionage:. I'd put them on Hannibal, since likely you'll kill Hatty first.

Spoiler Turn 74 :


Went back several turns to correct my gameplay. Gave corn to Gergovia and also Tolosa will 2-pop whip a worker at size 4. Only stagnated for 2 turns since it was chopped too:
20230108125507_1.jpg


Worker whipped. Capital finished Granary:
20230108125627_1.jpg


Overflow will go into settler on Tolosa for one turn, then will keep growing.
20230108125822_1.jpg


Actually, decided to overflow into two warriors instead. I think the MP with Monarchy will be better anyways:
20230108130617_1.jpg


Turn 67: Teching sailing. No more stagnating. Gave back corn to capital. Tolosa will chop + Whip settler at size 5:
20230108130854_1.jpg


1-pop whipped granary at Gergovia. Overflow will go into WB:
20230108131039_1.jpg


Capital grew to size 5 and had health issues. In my ADHD mind I just realized in reloading I forgot to pasture the pigs by capital! :D So I reloaded a few turns and turn 67 I sent two workers to pasture pigs:
20230108131517_1.jpg


Turn 74: Teching towards Monarchy to cash in on all those warriors. Whipped two settlers, one in capital and another in Tolosa. Question is, where do you recommend I settle next?
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Okay. You are rushing through the game. Slow down. You don't learn anything if you don't discuss you choices! I mentioned monarchy and BAM you have what 10 warriors and start to limp towards monarchy, paying insane amounts of :gold: for those warriors every turn. There must be some other way.

Don't play too fast, ask if you need to. In my game city count T75 was 7-3-3, so don't stop expanding since you will soon be working a lot of cottages and there are plenty of strong :food:-tiles around.
Like I said earlier, don't stop expanding. I'm at 7 cities, you just finished your settler for 5th. You should always know where next city is going, otherwise you can't plan how to make it contribute as fast as possible.

My next cities were 2W of capital corn to get the pig after border pop. Capital and Tolosa struggle to use all that food, so it makes sense to pass the corn to the next city. Another spot was 2S1E of capital pigs, with the exact same reasoning (I think this is a better 5th city since it has way more :commerce:). My 7th city was pigs in the east.

Instead of those warriors, you should focus on getting more settlers and workers.

It would really pay off now to see research of either of your neighbors, then you could decide whether you can delay writing (if they go for it, you get OB) or if you can get monarchy via trade. Hannibal has a religion so it'd be very good to get it asap, like Fippy mentioned.

You don't need to replay if you don't want to. Don't make this too stressful for yourself! But please, take it slow, discuss, only then you learn. If you want to play fast, have another game going at the same time.
 
Okay. You are rushing through the game. Slow down. You don't learn anything if you don't discuss you choices! I mentioned monarchy and BAM you have what 10 warriors and start to limp towards monarchy, paying insane amounts of :gold: for those warriors every turn. There must be some other way.


Like I said earlier, don't stop expanding. I'm at 7 cities, you just finished your settler for 5th. You should always know where next city is going, otherwise you can't plan how to make it contribute as fast as possible.

My next cities were 2W of capital corn to get the pig after border pop. Capital and Tolosa struggle to use all that food, so it makes sense to pass the corn to the next city. Another spot was 2S1E of capital pigs, with the exact same reasoning (I think this is a better 5th city since it has way more :commerce:). My 7th city was pigs in the east.

Instead of those warriors, you should focus on getting more settlers and workers.

It would really pay off now to see research of either of your neighbors, then you could decide whether you can delay writing (if they go for it, you get OB) or if you can get monarchy via trade. Hannibal has a religion so it'd be very good to get it asap, like Fippy mentioned.

You don't need to replay if you don't want to. Don't make this too stressful for yourself! But please, take it slow, discuss, only then you learn. If you want to play fast, have another game going at the same time.
I’ll replay since I really want to learn. How far back do you recommend? I want to be at 7 cities by then too
 
I’ll replay since I really want to learn. How far back do you recommend? I want to be at 7 cities by then too
I think your T50 or so save was very good!
 
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I always like writing before taking on bigger techs like Monarchy, even if libraries are not rushed they are at least something useful to put :hammers: in.
Okay maybe not always but it's rare to skip writing for that long imo.
Yeh. I'm not a huge fan of writing itself (I don't like non-CRE libraries that much, especially if you have non-IMP/EXP settlers/workers, non-EXP granaries, CHA monuments, warriors to put :hammers: into), but it opens up some very good techs. I agree that it's rare to go for monarchy before writing.
 
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@CGQ also, you don't really need 7th city by T75. You need enough workers to make that city worthwhile. It's pretty important to work as many cottages (at least the floodplains) as possible as soon as possible. They will be the backbone of your position for the remainder of the game.
 
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I think your T50 or so save was very good!


Spoiler Played to Turn 53 :

So I went back to turn 50 and played these next 3 turns. What do you think?
20230109201627_1.jpg


I'm going to put chops into settler then whip the granary in capital. Vienne and Tolosa will get one too. Currently teching AH and will pasture pigs as soon as AH arrives. Workers double-building cottages so they'll be up even sooner.

 

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  • Carlos The Immortal Shadow III BC-1880 1.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Okay, let's look at city management. Please read carefully and try to understand what you should be trying to achieve. Ask if it's confusing. Once you get a hang of these things (let's call it city management beyond basics) everything starts to feel a lot easier and you'll be the runaway civ in nearly every immortal game.

Tolosa - whip granary when available, start warrior (or barracks, but at least this city needs a police), preferably have cottages to work while you grow (though some turns working 2:food:1:hammers: is not a disaster). Later, depending on the :)-situation, either whip a settler/worker or stagnate if you have to cool off whip anger working those cottages. In that case it'd be nice to give corn away, since it's a waste to turn a 6:food:-tile to a 6:hammers:-tile (after granary!). I always put down a sign with Alt+S saying when the borders pop, so that I could manage to have 1-2 workers ready on the sheep immediately when available.

Bibracte - "I'm going to put chops into settler then whip the granary in capital." In general, when competing builds are granary vs settler/worker, what you want to achieve is getting the settler out as fast as you can, preferably via whip, then have the granary done next turn in order to grow really fast. Every turn you stagnate the granary does nothing, this is why the settler/worker is more important. There are a few ways to do this, but I think since you probably already have whip anger and want soon to be max size, I'd try to not stack a lot of anger. I'd keep building the granary, let chops go into it, grow to size 6 with your nice tiles, then 3-pop settler. The timing should be nice with chops that you are then finishing the granary size 3.

Vienne - with this city I'd address one issue you have right now: not enough workers. I'd grow to 4, whip worker, start granary. You have one forest and 4th city will claim you another one, so then immediately chop that 40:hammers: towards granary. Should be enough to complete it with overflow from worker whip.

There might be a better 4th city than clam, the southern spot 2S1E of pig. It's better because it's connected and can work 3 shared green cottages, i.e. has much higher immediate :commerce:. Then 5th to clam, 6th to western pig (or eastern pig). Cities on a river with :food:-resources (even shared) and green tiles are very strong and you should try to settle as fast as you can.

Once you have a vision what every city is doing, what it will look like in say 3-5 turns, it's easier to see what your workers should do. I am very careful with every worker move, for me it's the most "fun" thing in the game and I think in general it is one major thing that differentiates players beating deity and ones who struggle on immortal. If you want to see what excellent worker management looks like in practice, watch Lain.

edit: one more thing about city management, one that I see even strong players get wrong. Don't be afraid to grow into unhappiness. Avoid when possible yes, but often growing into :( is better than stagnating. The reason is simple - even unhappy citizens are worth 30:hammers: via whip and as a bonus they don't eat :food: when building settler/worker. For me, the only argument against growing into :( is maintenance cost. Capital is special in this respect, as extra citizens cost less.
 
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Not sure if it was mentioned, but for clam city I would think netting the clam would be first priority. Have a worker ready to chop a forest for a wb such that there is ~ 8 to 9 hammers in the wb so it is 1t after the chop...max hammers on the wb until the chop. If done correctly you can have a very fast wb.
 
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If done correctly you can have a very fast wb.
Indeed, there is a lot to do with workers so you need to plan ahead. I also chopped the forest under clam-city, but not totally sure if it's worth 4 workerT. Well, settles 1T faster, too.
 
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Okay, let's look at city management. Please read carefully and try to understand what you should be trying to achieve. Ask if it's confusing. Once you get a hang of these things (let's call it city management beyond basics) everything starts to feel a lot easier and you'll be the runaway civ in nearly every immortal game.

Tolosa - whip granary when available, start warrior (or barracks, but at least this city needs a police), preferably have cottages to work while you grow (though some turns working 2:food:1:hammers: is not a disaster). Later, depending on the :)-situation, either whip a settler/worker or stagnate if you have to cool off whip anger working those cottages. In that case it'd be nice to give corn away, since it's a waste to turn a 6:food:-tile to a 6:hammers:-tile (after granary!). I always put down a sign with Alt+S saying when the borders pop, so that I could manage to have 1-2 workers ready on the sheep immediately when available.

Bibracte - "I'm going to put chops into settler then whip the granary in capital." In general, when competing builds are granary vs settler/worker, what you want to achieve is getting the settler out as fast as you can, preferably via whip, then have the granary done next turn in order to grow really fast. Every turn you stagnate the granary does nothing, this is why the settler/worker is more important. There are a few ways to do this, but I think since you probably already have whip anger and want soon to be max size, I'd try to not stack a lot of anger. I'd keep building the granary, let chops go into it, grow to size 6 with your nice tiles, then 3-pop settler. The timing should be nice with chops that you are then finishing the granary size 3.

Vienne - with this city I'd address one issue you have right now: not enough workers. I'd grow to 4, whip worker, start granary. You have one forest and 4th city will claim you another one, so then immediately chop that 40:hammers: towards granary. Should be enough to complete it with overflow from worker whip.

There might be a better 4th city than clam, the southern spot 2S1E of pig. It's better because it's connected and can work 3 shared green cottages, i.e. has much higher immediate :commerce:. Then 5th to clam, 6th to western pig (or eastern pig). Cities on a river with :food:-resources (even shared) and green tiles are very strong and you should try to settle as fast as you can.

Once you have a vision what every city is doing, what it will look like in say 3-5 turns, it's easier to see what your workers should do. I am very careful with every worker move, for me it's the most "fun" thing in the game and I think in general it is one major thing that differentiates players beating deity and ones who struggle on immortal. If you want to see what excellent worker management looks like in practice, watch Lain.

edit: one more thing about city management, one that I see even strong players get wrong. Don't be afraid to grow into unhappiness. Avoid when possible yes, but often growing into :( is better than stagnating. The reason is simple - even unhappy citizens are worth 30:hammers: via whip and as a bonus they don't eat :food: when building settler/worker. For me, the only argument against growing into :( is maintenance cost. Capital is special in this respect, as extra citizens cost less.


Spoiler Turn 64 :


Tolosa 1-pop whipped granary at size 2 and capital is growing to size 6 for settler whip. AH is about to come in and two workers are going to pasture pigs. After they will pasture sheep.
20230110173039_1.jpg


Turn 60: Defeated barb warrior by Vienne. Vienne starting worker for 2-pop whip. Tolosa will keep growing and finish warrior for MP. Capital will build settler next turn. Worker moving to sheep.
20230110173441_1.jpg


Turn 64: (reloaded last few turns to optimize worker management. I was 1 turn late to sheep lol.). Settler about to found 4th city. Clam city will be next. What do you think so far?
20230110174629_1.jpg

 

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  • Carlos The Immortal Shadow III BC-1440.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Looks pretty good to me! My Tolosa wouldn't work 1:food:2:hammers: though, rather just grow into unhappiness with either 3:food: or 2:food:2:commerce:(lake) (edit: hmm maybe you don't have fishing). Vienne worker should be chopping that granary, you already have two improved unworked tiles which indicates no immediate need for more, and getting granary asap is often more important than a cottage now that your :commerce: is and will be fine. Scout should start going east 1 tile at the time to bust the pig spot.

Tolosa is the obvious candidate for next 3-pop settler whip. I think the clam spot is better than west pig. Maybe cool off with slow build worker after that, you are again getting low on workers. Some other city should also prepare to 3-pop settler. In capital my build after monument would be a library, again 3-pop whipped of course. There is a lot of tile swapping between capital/Vienne/4th. Capital is soon ready to take corn from Tolosa too, at least while Tolosa is stagnating.
 
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Looks pretty good to me! My Tolosa wouldn't work 1:food:2:hammers: though, rather just grow into unhappiness with either 3:food: or 2:food:2:commerce:(lake) (edit: hmm maybe you don't have fishing). Vienne worker should be chopping that granary, you already have two improved unworked tiles which indicates no immediate need for more, and getting granary asap is often more important than a cottage now that your :commerce: is and will be fine. Scout should start going east 1 tile at the time to bust the pig spot.

Tolosa is the obvious candidate for next 3-pop settler whip. I think the clam spot is better than west pig. Maybe cool off with slow build worker after that, you are again getting low on workers. Some other city should also prepare to 3-pop settler. In capital my build after monument would be a library, again 3-pop whipped of course. There is a lot of tile swapping between capital/Vienne/4th. Capital is soon ready to take corn from Tolosa too, at least while Tolosa is stagnating.


Spoiler Turn 71 :


Turn 66: Writing comes in next turn. Tolosa about to finish warrior and become size 6. Will switch to settler next turn. I gave corn back to capital too:
20230111201741_1.jpg


Scratch that...I meant writing comes in the next turn:hammer2:
20230111202457_1.jpg


Turn 69: Writing came in, I opened borders with neighboring AI. Switched EP to Hatty. Settler heading to clam spot. Fishing will be done in 2 turns right when settler...well settles. Gave pig to Gergovia. For Tolosa, whip overflow will go into 4 turn worker while whip anger settles. Will whip library in Bib at size 7. Will try to chop forest where city will go as lymond suggested.
20230111203050_1.jpg


Turn 69: Reloaded to improve gameplay. I 1-whipped a granary at size 3 in Vienne, and gave pig to Gergovia earlier. Now I gave it back to capital while workers build cottage to grow cap to size 6-7 then whip library. Also moved worker to clam forest (where 5th city will settle) sooner since I was 1 turn too late first time.
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Turn 71: 5th city settled. Will chop WB:
20230111204812_1.jpg


What do I tech next here? Alphabet or should I go Monarchy? I think 6th city can go to east pig and 7th can go to east pigs (and grab horse/clam too.)

 

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  • Carlos The Immortal Shadow III BC-1160 2.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Looks pretty good to me. How do you feel about the position? If you beat Hannibal to pig/horse/clam (1N pig?), great. Leaves room for filler 3E of Vienne (steals corn, has forest, has green tiles to be cottaged). Vienne and Tolosa seem to be the spots to 3-pop whip next two settlers.

Techwise I would get sailing (trade routes, also scout coast towards Hannibal to open them), then go for 0% slider for a while to see whether they get alpha or monarchy. You can go for academy (makes sense in a long game, decent capital also), in which case staying at 0% slider for close to 20T also makes sense.
 
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One thing you need to consider is how many libraries are you building and where. I'm not a fan of non-CRE libraries in most games, but here I think the game will be long (as you need at least astro to win) so you probably should build several libraries. Perhaps not in every city though. It also depends a bit on when are you planning to expand via war, which depends a bit on the availability of strategic resources. Maybe you can get ivory via trade. If not, getting horse would be pretty nice, which I think in practice would mean taking over the continent with cuirassiers.
 
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@sampsa is there an argument here for staying compact and just getting 6-7 cities while teching to cuirs? Or would you just REX until you run out of available land.

I played along just to T89 and did things a bit differently, basically I just beelined Wheel-Pottery (before BW) and fogbusted w/ warriors+scout
 
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