Should college return to its old purpose?

Tahuti

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...of preparing students for an academic career? As it is now, corporations and evenn the students themselves have bought the idea that finishing a degree is necessary to be a competent employee.

Should that end? Should college become more exclusive as in more geared towards people who want to have academic exposure to a certain subject, as opposed to be trained in becoming a potential employee? Has college become a government subsidised corporate training ground that has deprived university education of its meaning and simply nothing other than propping up corporations?
 
This is something that concerns the whole college and not just certain departments? Because I'm not sure which corporations want all these wannabe doctors and pharmacists.
 
Well, plenty of recently created degrees in the medical department such as Bioinformatics seem to be created to supply Biotech firms with a steady supply of PhD's. They however do not research in a academic or scientific environment, rather, in a corporate one.
 
And bioinformatics isn't used in academic biology research?
 
All true, however, there is a strong trend towards degree (over)specialisation. That may have a relation with the trend that college education is increasingly seen as something indispensible, comparable to a high-school diploma.
 
Agreed, degree inflation is something that exists. I just found certain statements in the OP to be a bit strong.

I'm just curious how it would be fixed. If it can be fixed. We're talking about managing the expectations of all of society.
 
Unfortunately, other than trades (plumbing, carpentry and such), a 4 year college degree is viewed to day as a high school degree was viewed by my parents - necessary for any job.

Add in the fact that high schools are taking time for so much more than the "traditional" academic subjects, it isn't likely to change.
 
I'm just curious how it would be fixed. If it can be fixed. We're talking about managing the expectations of all of society.

Well, almost every developed country has government subsidies for attending college, such as cheap loans or student stipends (like in Denmark). My first proposal would be to repurpose those programs to also help young people build businesses and/or learn trades, like becoming a carpenter for instance, and not just for attending college.

Also, decreasing the compulsory education age or adding exemptions for apprenticeship programmes may help as well.
 
I think the point is that it used to be that a high school diploma was the minimum education needed for most jobs. Almost any position above minimum wage will state "college degree or its equivalent".
 
When was college for preparing an academic career?

I don't early in the 20th century people went to college to get access to get jobs yet.
 
I certainly think people did go to college for career purposes rather than academic careers, but there are a variety of more dominant factors since 1900-1950, at least in the US. Median household income, real income, etc increased from like 1940-1970 and then stabilised for like the ~20th-80th percentile ranged.

Saying "college is/was for academic careers" is a very different statement than "too many jobs require degrees that don't need them." I'm sure there are also better statistics on the loss of middle income manufacturing jobs and trade skill jobs throughout the US (that typically did not require a bachelor's degree to get in the past), but I think those jobs are also generally just gone as opposed to just have higher requirements. I also do not know much about vocational schools/trade schools for such fields as welding, plumbing, etc etc.

Here is a half arsed post because I don't really feel like looking up a lot of other things until others provide substance to their rather meaningless statements:
Spoiler :

If you're going to compare like 1930-1945 data (for which not much would be well kept) to 1970-2010 data you're going to be way off because of all the other societal changes that occured during that time.

An "academic career" is an extremely narrow definition (academic means either at an academic institution, i.e. university professor, or be like a researcher at an academic insititution--often those two of course overlap). I highly doubt the amount of people who went to university to strictly become a university professor or go into academia has changed drastically or even noticeably since ~1960; and I would expect that every statistic about the first implementation of the G.I. Bill (post WWII) would find that the WWII veterans overwhelmingly went to college on those funds for career and vocational training rather than "academic" purposes.

If you want to look at time periods much more relevant (eg last 20-50 years) you'll find many college degrees are probably even less career oriented educations. E.g. here is some look at "S&E" (science and engineering), which basically means STEM (science tech engineering math), that has stayed pretty constant in enrollment overtime. Included is the "Engineering technologies" in the spreadsheet, which would be associate's degrees in a variety of probably "trade" skills (eg welding, etc).
fig02-12.gif

www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/append/c2/at02-15.xls

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/c2/c2s2.htm#s2

Actually I guess enrollment for majors have been pretty consistent for the last 20 years or so:
II-1b.jpg

http://www.humanitiesindicators.org/content/hrcoIIA.aspx#topII1

i.e. tl;dr is that people have always been attending college or trade schools for career purposes rather than academic purposes and, surprisingly, college enrollment has typically stayed pretty even as to what people attend college for. The problem is that many degrees are relatively worthless to the career field people are intending to go into, and that the cost of education has risen [drastically, and especially as median household income and such has stayed relatively flatter] to leave students in higher and higher amounts of debt for obtaining the same degree.

The generation ahead of mine could potentially really "work" their way through college. Now people either go in debt or have to have more fortunate backgrounds (i.e. parental or family support), but I really doubt that the reasons and functions for a college education has shifted since ~1960.
 
I posted about some of these issues at length in this thread, but for all the trouble I put into it all I got out of it was so-helpful 'lolwut'. Admittedly, my life got crazy busy after I posted it so I didn't follow up like I should have, but I doubt I could have moved traffic to it in any case. It was too long for most readers.

The relevant sections are "Cost" and "Educational Value".

tl;dr --

I don't really know whether or not your assertion about 'college for academic careers' is true or not, but I whole-heartedly agree that there are too many worthless degrees and programs out there sucking resources out of the system and many corporations do have 'degree fetish' where they will only look at degree holding candidates for jobs that don't really require them. But part of that problem goes back to public ed, which is pumping out HS graduates that lack basic skills even in necessary things like Excel, math, writing memos, etc.
 
Saying "college is/was for academic careers" is a very different statement than "too many jobs require degrees that don't need them."

Well, what non-academic jobs outside of medicine, engineering and law did require degrees early in the 20th century? Not many, I wager. If you studied history, your aim was to become an historian. Study physics, and/if your goal would be to become a physicist. Study maths, and you aimed to become a mathematician. At the very least, you just would major in something in order to become an academic or a scientist. Somewhere after WWII this changed.
 
Well, what non-academic jobs outside of medicine, engineering and law did require degrees early in the 20th century? Not many, I wager. If you studied history, your aim was to become an historian. Study physics, and/if your goal would be to become a physicist. Study maths, and you aimed to become a mathematician. At the very least, you just would major in something in order to become an academic or a scientist. Somewhere after WWII this changed.

It's going to be really hard to prove that things like business degrees, etc, became more prevalent because they were required by businesses instead of businesses requiring them because they were more prevalent.

Edit: Which I guess is beside your point maybe.
 
It's going to be really hard to prove that things like business degrees, etc, became more prevalent because they were required by businesses instead of businesses requiring them because they were more prevalent.

Edit: Which I guess is beside your point maybe.

No, it is completely to the point: For some time, there has been a artificial demand for degrees. Partially fuelled by government subsidies of college education as well.
 
many corporations do have 'degree fetish' where they will only look at degree holding candidates for jobs that don't really require them.
That might even be just a reflection of an excess of applicants for a dearth of jobs. Naturally standards would increase, and see little reason for them to recede. It would be interesting to note job application requirements before and after economic turndowns, and check whether there is a long-term trend.
 
That might even be just a reflection of an excess of applicants for a dearth of jobs. Naturally standards would increase, and see little reason for them to recede. It would be interesting to note job application requirements before and after economic turndowns, and check whether there is a long-term trend.

Until one company discovers that you can hire people without degrees who make employees who are just as competent.
 
Until one company discovers that you can hire people without degrees who make employees who are just as competent.

But why would a company go for someone that they suspect is competent when they have plenty of other applicants who have proven that they are at least competent enough to pass college?

There could be two reasons:
1) The one without a degree is significantly cheaper. But with the abundance of college graduates who are desperate for a job I suspect that to be significantly cheaper you would be working near minimum wage anyway.

2) The one without a degree has acquired a skill set that would be useful for the job (and can back that up). I don't know what opportunities are there in the US to acquire such skills.


In some areas there are certainly jobs outside the academic area that require a college level education. So you cannot return colleges to its old purposes without something filling that requirement.

One solution would be to divide colleges into those that are intended for people looking for a real job afterwards and those intended for people wanting a place in academia. The former would have a more practical focus and the latter would focus on academic topics.
 
As uppi points out, the kind of long-term strategic thinking that would dictate "Let's hire workers without degrees because they'll work for less and degrees are meaningless," is kind of discouraged by the short-term, profit-based thought that most corporations operate under anymore. As a student currently in public high school (my junior year), I promise you the profound illness and moral cancer that is American finance "corporate" culture has seeped down to every level of the education system. It is now the modus operandi of schools all the way down to the level of kindergarten to prepare children for employment, preferably in white collar finance or IT capacities. All education is being sussed out, to the most micro-managing degree possible, for usefulness in the context of employment. Math, the vaunted gateway to high-paying IT jobs, is taught with the intention of separating good students with potential for important degrees (engineering, etc) from bad students who will go on to be useless things in life, like authors, artists or -- shudder -- members of the government.

We are constantly being reminded that it is the job of our educators (never teachers, educators) to prepare us for employment. Actually learning anything is secondary to the goal of padding our resume, and we are continually ensured that resumes and perception of ability to provide for our employer, is the only thing that actually matters in our "career" as students. Please notice that I am emphasizing the continual use of business and finance language within the educational sphere.

North Carolina schools at least are being pumped full of teachers who do not actually know anything about the subject matter they are teaching, but rather have degrees from "education" schools, especially North Carolina State University which produces a large number of teachers (educators) with degrees in education and not the actual subject that they teach in the school. This is because it is considered the responsibility of the students to dig within themselves, and find their natural talent for the material, which is being offered only in the hope that they will be able to use their own natural skill to divine the subject matter in such a way that will make them palatable to employers. This is reinforced by the adoption of "Common Core" standards designed to place an even higher onus on students to grasp the material and make use of it themselves, rather than have it actually explained to them.

So what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

We are continually reminded that colleges also do not exist to actually teach us anything. Instead, colleges consider us an investment, and that investment can only be justified if they are producing students who are employable. If our high school transcripts do not demonstrate acceptable, marketable skills, colleges have no interest in us. This is exacerbated by the Teahadists currently in control of the state government, who are gleefully trying to defund and restructure the state's public colleges to make them more interesting to private sector employers.

Education is in the toilet in America and pretty soon we will return a world in which only the children of the extremely wealthy will be going to college. Rest in peace, the middle class.
 
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