Should confederate monuments be destroyed?

[Manfred Belheim]

Are the vast majority of the inhabitants of North America descended from those natives or from the European immigrants (or people that they brought over)?

 

[luiz]

So Columbus is ultimately responsible for the existence of the native North Americans who were not European immigrants/refugees, but rather the descendants of the people who walked over the Bering land bridge over 10,000 years ago?

Did he have a time machine in his pocket, or something? Was he the only European explorer who got into a boat and came here?

Of course not.

I don't know why I even bother answering your posts...

But if you paid attention to what I wrote, you'll see that I mentioned the Columbian exchange, which was inaugurated by Columbus but of course not restricted to him. You'll note that I talk about modern people in the Americas - the overwhelming majority of which would indeed not exist without the Columbian exchange, because the overwhelming majority has non-Amerindian blood (including people who self classify as Amerindian). So even they would not exist.

I have never heard of "Alesia Caesar."

What a great and insightful comment. I post from my phone, so punctuation suffers. But I think people with a normal level of intelligence were able to comprehend what I meant, and that is the purpose of communication.

 

[Kyriakos]

I voted 'build even more', cause it is the funniest option, and will allow me to keep track of the voting while remaining lazy

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Are the vast majority of the inhabitants of North America descended from those natives or from the European immigrants (or people that they brought over)?

Way to miss the point. I'm talking about aboriginal people. As in the descendants of those who migrated from Asia over 10,000 years ago. I'm not talking about black people, Middle Eastern people, European people, or modern Asian people.

I don't know why I even bother answering your posts...

I don't either, since you seem to either genuinely not understand me, or you deliberately misinterpret me, or you're just constantly on the lookout for any opportunity to trot out your derogatory labels such as "leftists" or "SJWs" - like it's a bad thing to be a left-wing voter (they're why we in Canada can go to any hospital and not need to worry about being bankrupt afterward) or someone who is in favor of a just society.

But if you paid attention to what I wrote, you'll see that I mentioned the Columbian exchange, which was inaugurated by Columbus but of course not restricted to him. You'll note that I talk about modern people in the Americas - the overwhelming majority of which would indeed not exist without the Columbian exchange, because the overwhelming majority has non-Amerindian blood (including people who self classify as Amerindian). So even they would not exist.

Nope. You specifically mentioned Columbus, praised him, did not define this "Columbian exchange" and you said:

...ultimately responsible for the very existence of the vast majority of people in the American contient today (arguably virtually everyone, except some isolated Amazonian tribes).

This says that this "exchange" was responsible for the existence of the North American natives, since these "isolated Amazonian tribes" are not in North America.

This is obviously nonsense. The First Nations people would be here whether Columbus, et. al had ever come or if they'd all just stayed home. Ditto for the native people in the U.S. part of the continent, and those in Central America. The European explorers are not "responsible" for any of those people existing other than the ones descended from both native and European parents. There are still a lot of them who don't have European ancestors - and they still live, work, and go to school here in Canada... TODAY.

I'm not disputing that the early European explorers facilitated this mass European immigration over the centuries. Without it, of course I wouldn't exist. After all, it's pretty unlikely otherwise for my father - born of Swedish/Norwegian parents - to have married my mother - born of Irish/English/German ancestry - and produce me.

What a great and insightful comment. I post from my phone, so punctuation suffers. But I think people with a normal level of intelligence were able to comprehend what I meant, and that is the purpose of communication.

I don't care if you post by smoke signals. I'm not talking about punctuation. While your sentence in that post is incomplete, there are no punctuation errors. I said I am not familiar with "Alesia Caesar." Who is that?

Instead of a paragraph of being snide, you could just either explain who that is, or post a Wikipedia link, if your phone can't handle a civil explanation.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Who was Alesia Caesar? an Autocorrect fail?

 

[Synobun]

It is referring to Caesar's conquest of Alesia. The only thing missing from luiz's sentence is a singular comma.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It is referring to Caesar's conquest of Alesia. The only thing missing from luiz's sentence is a singular comma.

Thank you for explaining. I had never heard of Alesia and it looked like a proper name and an incomplete sentence. Since I'm familiar with most of the family tree of the Caesars, that's why I asked.

 

[luiz]

Way to miss the point. I'm talking about aboriginal people. As in the descendants of those who migrated from Asia over 10,000 years ago. I'm not talking about black people, Middle Eastern people, European people, or modern Asian people.

Aboriginals of the Americas are also called Amerindians. I specifically mentioned them in my post: the vast majority of moder Amerindians have non-Amerindian blood. So they are a product of the Columbian exchange as much as me and you.

Nope. You specifically mentioned Columbus, praised him, did not define this "Columbian exchange" and you said:


This says that this "exchange" was responsible for the existence of the North American natives, since these "isolated Amazonian tribes" are not in North America.

This is obviously nonsense. The First Nations people would be here whether Columbus, et. al had ever come or if they'd all just stayed home. Ditto for the native people in the U.S. part of the continent, and those in Central America. The European explorers are not "responsible" for any of those people existing other than the ones descended from both native and European parents. There are still a lot of them who don't have European ancestors - and they still live, work, and go to school here in Canada... TODAY.

I'm not disputing that the early European explorers facilitated this mass European immigration over the centuries. Without it, of course I wouldn't exist. After all, it's pretty unlikely otherwise for my father - born of Swedish/Norwegian parents - to have married my mother - born of Irish/English/German ancestry - and produce me.

Well clearly I mentioned the exchange inaugurated by Columbus.

And yeah, as I mentioned even most native peoples have some non-native ancestry by today, which means they would not exist without the exchange. Of course the tribes would exist, just not the individuals who exist at present. Arguably, even the very few who do not have any foreign background would not exist, as certainly their ancestors were pushed by Europeans to different places, so likely at least some of them would not have met without outside influence. That's why I mentioned isolated Amazonian tribes, as they might be the only ones who would still exist in their present form without the Columbian exchange.

I don't care if you post by smoke signals. I'm not talking about punctuation. While your sentence in that post is incomplete, there are no punctuation errors. I said I am not familiar with "Alesia Caesar." Who is that?

Instead of a paragraph of being snide, you could just either explain who that is, or post a Wikipedia link, if your phone can't handle a civil explanation.

OK, if you genuinely did not understand I apologize. But understand my confusion and why I thought you were the one being snide :

-We were specifically discussing Julius Caesar and his conquest of Gaul
-Another poster argued that Caesar didn't really enslave the Gauls
-I countered that after Alesia, Caesar took at least 40,000 slaves. The comma was missing, but the context could not be clearer. Also, Alesia is one of the highlights of Cesar's career, and he wrote extensively about it in his comments on the Gallic wars, and it just preceeded and influenced the civil war that forever changed Rome. Certainly, people with an interest on Roman history are familiar with this term.
-if you really did not understand and Google "Alesia Caesar" you will be directed to pages about the battle.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Way to miss the point. I'm talking about aboriginal people. As in the descendants of those who migrated from Asia over 10,000 years ago. I'm not talking about black people, Middle Eastern people, European people, or modern Asian people.

I know you are, but the vast majority of the people in North America today aren't directly descended from them, which is what the post you quoted was talking about. So either you missed the point, or you neglected to explain why you're suddenly talking about something else and acting as though it's a counter to that point.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Aboriginals of the Americas are also called Amerindians. I specifically mentioned them in my post: the vast majority of moder Amerindians have non-Amerindian blood. So they are a product of the Columbian exchange as much as me and you.


Well clearly I mentioned the exchange inaugurated by Columbus.

And yeah, as I mentioned even most native peoples have some non-native ancestry by today, which means they would not exist without the exchange. Of course the tribes would exist, just not the individuals who exist at present. Arguably, even the very few who do not have any foreign background would not exist, as certainly their ancestors were pushed by Europeans to different places, so likely at least some of them would not have met without outside influence. That's why I mentioned isolated Amazonian tribes, as they might be the only ones who would still exist in their present form without the Columbian exchange.


OK, if you genuinely did not understand I apologize. But understand my confusion and why I thought you were the one being snide :

-We were specifically discussing Julius Caesar and his conquest of Gaul
-Another poster argued that Caesar didn't really enslave the Gauls
-I countered that after Alesia, Caesar took at least 40,000 slaves. The comma was missing, but the context could not be clearer. Also, Alesia is one of the highlights of Cesar's career, and he wrote extensively about it in his comments on the Gallic wars, and it just preceeded and influenced the civil war that forever changed Rome. Certainly, people with an interest on Roman history are familiar with this term.
-if you really did not understand and Google "Alesia Caesar" you will be directed to pages about the battle.

See what a difference a civil explanation can make? Thank you for clarifying. That goes much further than getting huffy.

I don't necessarily read every post in a thread, so I don't follow every conversation or side conversation.

Yes, I am aware that the natives of our respective continents are also called Amerindians. What I don't agree with is your statement that practically the only ones who have no European ancestry are a few isolated tribes in the Amazon. I will take your word about the region of the world where you live. How about conceding that it's reasonable for me to surmise that since some of the aboriginal people in Canada live in areas so remote (as in there's no road to get there; it's either by boat or plane) or so damn cold, it would greatly surprise me if anyone actually chose to live there on purpose, let alone marry into the group. Of course there's been a lot of intermarriage and mixing without marriage in the southern regions of Canada, and places like Iqaluit are attracting people from many regions (it's the newest territorial capital, since Nunavut was created).

You should have defined the phrase "Columbian exchange." It's not one I was familiar with (and don't come back and say "everyone" is; obviously I wasn't).

Keep in mind that a person can have an interest in Roman history without being familiar with everything Julius Caesar did. I am still learning (given the fact that there's over a millennium for just the Western portion alone, it's not something that can be learned all at once). I do have the Penguin edition of his book about the Gallic wars, but haven't read it yet. So no, I had not heard of Alesia.

BTW, when I say I don't understand something, I am stating a fact. There is no "if". When I say I don't understand something, that means that further explanation would be nice - offered in a civil manner.

So now I will go do some googling, or see if anyone on the Roman history forum I belong to can recommend some further reading.

I know you are, but the vast majority of the people in North America today aren't directly descended from them, which is what the post you quoted was talking about. So either you missed the point, or you neglected to explain why you're suddenly talking about something else and acting as though it's a counter to that point.

According to luiz, basically everyone in the Americas other than a few isolated Amazonian tribes is descended from Europeans. That's nonsense. I'm not claiming that there are isolated pockets of natives in Canada who haven't had contact; that's obviously also nonsense.

But I am saying that there are bands and other groups that... let's just say that it would greatly surprise me if they had European ancestors, given the inhospitable climate in which they live, the sheer isolation, and the history of this country that makes it unlikely that some groups would go for this sort of relationship.

Some of them in the southern regions now have a policy of "marry out, get out" - anyone marrying a white person/non-native is expected to leave the reserve. If they don't leave voluntarily, they're alternatively shunned, harassed, their home is vandalized, their kids threatened... the idea that white people can't be discriminated against is also nonsense. Of course the ones perpetrating this are among those who most probably have European ancestry, but their purpose is to not have any more among their people.

 

[Traitorfish]

I voted 'build even more', cause it is the funniest option, and will allow me to keep track of the voting while remaining lazy

If we're trying to discredit the Lost Cause myth, that might actually be the surest bet:

 

[BvBPL]

Given the history of most Confederate statuary with most of it being placed in response to the Civil Rights Movement, I am in favor of moving the statuary out of the public square. I think they would be better suited to being placed in museums and displayed in the context of the Civil Rights Era in which most were placed.

I think actual memorials should remain where they are, as a rule. Some exceptions may exist.

 

[Kyriakos]

If we're trying to discredit the Lost Cause myth, that might actually be the surest bet:

That looks like that famous patriot - Mel Gibson

 

[Manfred Belheim]

According to luiz, basically everyone in the Americas other than a few isolated Amazonian tribes is descended from Europeans. That's nonsense. I'm not claiming that there are isolated pockets of natives in Canada who haven't had contact; that's obviously also nonsense.

But I am saying that there are bands and other groups that... let's just say that it would greatly surprise me if they had European ancestors, given the inhospitable climate in which they live, the sheer isolation, and the history of this country that makes it unlikely that some groups would go for this sort of relationship.

Some of them in the southern regions now have a policy of "marry out, get out" - anyone marrying a white person/non-native is expected to leave the reserve. If they don't leave voluntarily, they're alternatively shunned, harassed, their home is vandalized, their kids threatened... the idea that white people can't be discriminated against is also nonsense. Of course the ones perpetrating this are among those who most probably have European ancestry, but their purpose is to not have any more among their people.

He didn't say descended from Europeans, he said exist because of the actions of Europeans. Which is kind of moot since the vast majority actually do have some European ancestry anyway.

I really don't get this exchange. He was talking about the majority of people, you retorted by just talking about the minority of people for a bit. When I commented on it I'm "missing your point" because you were talking specifically about Amerindian natives. But you seem to be missing the point that talking only about those people was missing the other point. A point of mine which you seemed to have missed. Maybe the three of us should get together and start a knife throwing act if we're all this good at missing points.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

He didn't say descended from Europeans, he said exist because of the actions of Europeans. Which is kind of moot since the vast majority actually do have some European ancestry anyway.

I really don't get this exchange. He was talking about the majority of people, you retorted by just talking about the minority of people for a bit. When I commented on it I'm "missing your point" because you were talking specifically about Amerindian natives. But you seem to be missing the point that talking only about those people was missing the other point. A point of mine which you seemed to have missed. Maybe the three of us should get together and start a knife throwing act if we're all this good at missing points.

At this point, I think you have missed the point that luiz clarified what he meant, I clarified what I meant, and you don't need to interpret what he meant because he already did that himself.

I've stated my intention to do extra reading on the topic, so as far as I'm concerned, the argument is over.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

At this point, I think you have missed the point that luiz clarified what he meant, I clarified what I meant, and you don't need to interpret what he meant because he already did that himself.

I've stated my intention to do extra reading on the topic, so as far as I'm concerned, the argument is over.

I didn't need luiz to clarify what he meant because I got it the first time. I'm also very clear on what you're talking about because you've made that clear too. What's not clear is how or why you think what you're saying is a response to what he said. And I wasn't even aware this was an argument.

 

[Leonel]

I don't think we oughta be taking them down right now at least simply for the reason that many of the attitudes that lead to them being erected in the first place still exist in society today. It's treating the symptom, not the disease and it seems to me that tearing down the statues will only prompt a reactionary response from a still sizable and dangerous population while also giving the false impression that this is a genuine step towards solving racism.

The South never went through a proper de-Nazification-like process like Germany so a lot of those attitudes are still firmly entrenched and it's going to take a whole lot more than legislation and statue moving to fix things.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I didn't need luiz to clarify what he meant because I got it the first time. I'm also very clear on what you're talking about because you've made that clear too. What's not clear is how or why you think what you're saying is a response to what he said. And I wasn't even aware this was an argument.

You do realize, don't you, that he was clarifying it to ME? I'm the one who didn't have all the facts. HE is the one I was having the argument with. Not you - at least not at first. But you seem determined to have the last word in a side conversation you weren't even part of in the beginning.

Can you just drop this?

 

[Berzerker]

from the looks of some of these monuments, I wouldn't put em in museums either

 

[Evie]

Ahhh, that wonderful statue.

Amazingly enough, a face-covering pointy hood would both make the statue more artistic AND more representative of the individual's accomplishment