Berzerker
Deity
hopefully we dont need to tear down statues to them either
Should confederate monuments be destroyed?
- Thread starter Disgustipated
- Start date
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Capitalism (as in the ideology of labor and markets) and slavery actually have precious little to do with each other (and capitalist industrialism vs slave-based agrarianism played heavily into the Civil War), but nice try.
(Greed fed directly into slavery, of course, as it does into capitalism, but Greed is not capitalism)
And "identities back in Africa" got a century of colonialism and its aftermath, courtesy of white folks, are generally steering clear of honoring slave traders (and in fact renamed a country or two whose name were among other things too reminiscent of slaves kingdoms).
(Greed fed directly into slavery, of course, as it does into capitalism, but Greed is not capitalism)
And "identities back in Africa" got a century of colonialism and its aftermath, courtesy of white folks, are generally steering clear of honoring slave traders (and in fact renamed a country or two whose name were among other things too reminiscent of slaves kingdoms).
Didnt read the thread but like to point out that the inventors of democracy the Greeks were a massive slave owners. Should we renounce democracy or Greek art and science becouse of it? Perhaps if what you want is a degress or to start with civilization all over again. Just dont think that not coming to terms with history or ideologicaly taking things out of context is somewhat progressive. Its plain stupid.
Not sure how Greece was more characteristic of "slave owning" than the rest of what existed back then, when you pretty much either had empires of subjugated people or endless land of barbarian villages 
Moreover, slave-use in ancient Greece was not racial; slaves could easily (and often were) be greek, either turned to slaves through conquest or bought by pirates. Even a few famous people became slaves at times (eg Diogenes the cynic).
Moreover, slave-use in ancient Greece was not racial; slaves could easily (and often were) be greek, either turned to slaves through conquest or bought by pirates. Even a few famous people became slaves at times (eg Diogenes the cynic).Does it really matter on what lines the Greeks practised their superiority? I have the feeling that those who want to take down the statues of Jefferson and Washington becouse they were a slave owners dont give a damn anyway...Not sure how Greece was more characteristic of "slave owning" than the rest of what existed back then, when you pretty much either had empires of subjugated people or endless land of barbarian villages
It possibly is relevant, though, given slavery in the US is always racial, which is also why it happens that many in the US don't like the angle of promoting awareness for social-economic slavery regardless of race (like Bernie did)
Imo there are more things uniting potentially the public, than dividing it, but divide et impera is strong. A low-income or unemployed white person in the US very likely isn't in less of a crap situation than their black counterpart.
Imo there are more things uniting potentially the public, than dividing it, but divide et impera is strong. A low-income or unemployed white person in the US very likely isn't in less of a crap situation than their black counterpart.
Berzerker
Deity
our wounds are more recent
Zkribbler
Deity
But why are we honoring men who attempted to divide our republic rather than, say, the more recent dough boys who fought to end all wars?
I think part of that stems from the belief that Lee wasn't 100% committed to the Confederate cause. The belief goes that Lee only joined the Confederates because he didn't want to fight against his home state of Virginia and some people even go as far to state he may have intentionally sabotaged the Confederate war effort to ensure their defeat. Of course there really isn't a lot of evidence to support that latter part.
Zkribbler
Deity
The first part is correct and IIRC was express in letter to General. Winfield Scott, who'd offered Lee command of the northern army.
The second part is just plain silly.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Nobody said we should burn the declaration of independence because a slave owner wrote it. Nobody said we should burn down Mount Vernon because a slave owner built it.
The problem with the Confederate statues is not that they happen to be statues of people who had slaves ; it's that they happen to be statues raised *because* these people fought for the cause of slavery. We can honor people's accomplishment DESPITE their crimes (And Greek Democracy, like the good Jefferson did, like the good Washington did, is worthy of honor), but we shouldn't honor someone for their crimes.
Statues of the Confederate generals do precisely that - they honor people for fighting for the "Southern Cause", which is to say, slavery.
The problem with the Confederate statues is not that they happen to be statues of people who had slaves ; it's that they happen to be statues raised *because* these people fought for the cause of slavery. We can honor people's accomplishment DESPITE their crimes (And Greek Democracy, like the good Jefferson did, like the good Washington did, is worthy of honor), but we shouldn't honor someone for their crimes.
Statues of the Confederate generals do precisely that - they honor people for fighting for the "Southern Cause", which is to say, slavery.
ashendashin
King
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2016
- Messages
- 989
I don't give a damn about the statues. I find the methods and surge of recent contrarian civil movements to be disgusting. Trivializing a war where hundreds of thousands died to the point where simply fighting on one side brands all participants with the most deplorable goal taken out of many, which were meant to serve millions of others (or at least made to seem so), is even more disgusting.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
That argument may apply to the rank and file soldiers, who may still deserve commemorated. It'spathetic when applied to leaders who knew very well what the southern cause was - and it was very explicitly slavery.
Lexicus
Deity
Nah, they don't, they knew what they were fighting for (slavery).
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
There is more wiggle room for them that the generals, and monuments aiming specifically to commemorate the price of war and those who paid it have other redeeming features.
Of course that's not what the majority of those are. They're monuments celebrating the war and lionizing the "heroes" who fought it, not commemorating the price of war and mourning those who paid it.
Of course that's not what the majority of those are. They're monuments celebrating the war and lionizing the "heroes" who fought it, not commemorating the price of war and mourning those who paid it.
Last edited:
Are you saying that the Greeks and the founding fathers were criminals? To properly understand and evaluate history you have to view things in context and thats exactly what the ignoramuses who call for removal of symbols of confederate leaders do not understand.
Also to reduce the "southern cause" to perpetuation of slavery seems to me rather ignorant but I will have to do some reading on that...
Abe Lincoln said:
Last edited:
MilesGregarius
Half-baked Renegade
If it really is all about history, let's leave Bobby Lee and Stonewall and Jeff Davis where they are and raise larger statues of Lincoln and Grant right next to them. I will gladly contribute to any efforts to build Bill Sherman statues in every town in South Carolina.
Just to be clear, i am saying the ancient greeks weren't criminals, but the founding fathers i don't care about, so why not?
Though it is nice to juxtapose people who lived 2300 years apart.
Despite that 2,300 years, many of the topics thoroughly discussed by the ancient Greeks are imo surprisingly modern and of fundamental value
Thank you, i take full credit for that.Despite that 2,300 years, many of the topics thoroughly discussed by the ancient Greeks are imo surprisingly modern and of fundamental value
Similar threads
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll
