Should confederate monuments be destroyed?

[Lexicus]

Ehm, your own link and even quoted post ( lol?) mentions them to debunk that as if anyone was arguing it was so. Did you bother to read your link or just run a fast google?

So again, I didn't mention Jewish people...the article, presumably, mentions them because many people are familiar with the Exodus narrative and the trope of Israelite enslavement in Egypt, though as I didn't write the article I can't be sure...

And no sloppy appeals to authority, pls. Yes, i am not an egyptologist. That sort of doesn't mean an egyptologist or a group of them is automatically right to claim WHATEVER. It is why i asked what status their theory has, eg what other egyptologists think, what it is based on, etc. You know, an actual logical point.

Tombs of the workers have been discovered, and they are clearly not slaves. As for the rest of it, I don't know what other Egyptologists think (I'm not an Egyptologist) but my understanding is that, as the director of the Berlin Museum said, it is 'common knowledge' in the field that the Pyramids were not built by slaves. I can't really tell you any more than that, I would suggest reading the links I posted and maybe doing some of your own research if you want to know more.

 

[Kyriakos]

So again, I didn't mention Jewish people...the article, presumably, mentions them because many people are familiar with the Exodus narrative and the trope of Israelite enslavement in Egypt, though as I didn't write the article I can't be sure...



Tombs of the workers have been discovered, and they are clearly not slaves. As for the rest of it, I don't know what other Egyptologists think (I'm not an Egyptologist) but my understanding is that, as the director of the Berlin Museum said, it is 'common knowledge' in the field that the Pyramids were not built by slaves. I can't really tell you any more than that, I would suggest reading the links I posted and maybe doing some of your own research if you want to know more.

I might, but i am underwhelmed by singular appeals to authority, so probably won't. It isn't your fault; just a difference of stance on this (and we are friends, i hope/think)

 

[Lexicus]

I might, but i am underwhelmed by singular appeals to authority, so probably won't.

This makes no sense to me...if you can't be bothered to do any research yourself and you won't listen to the words of experts in the field, I don't know what to tell you If you know about any archaeological or other evidence suggesting that slaves did in fact construct the pyramids, please, share it here.

 

[Kyriakos]

This makes no sense to me...if you can't be bothered to do any research yourself and you won't listen to the words of experts in the field, I don't know what to tell you If you know about any archaeological or other evidence suggesting that slaves did in fact construct the pyramids, please, share it here.

I guess you could say... you won +1 internet?

Casual discussion can be annoying, non?

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/23/...versity-virginia-charlottesville.html?mcubz=0

ESPN has removed an announcer from its broadcast of the University of Virginia’s first football game next month because he has the same name as a Confederate general memorialized in statues that are being taken down across the country.

IDIOTS!

 

[civver_764]

I can't help but notice all the outrage towards Confederate Statues seems to be entirely manufactured. Anyways, I support leaving them where they are because they have been there for so long as to become a "historical" part of that land. There's no need to be offended by them. We have seen that people can become offended over any statues if they want. Actually we see this happening now as people call for statues of the founding fathers and other Europeans to be removed. When are people going to realize that they're not "toppling white supremacy", just destroying history?

 

[Traitorfish]

When are people going to realize that they're not "toppling white supremacy", just destroying history?

Most of these statues are younger than my grandmother. What "history" do you imagine is being so irretrievably lost?

 

[civver_764]

Most of these statues are younger than my grandmother. What "history" do you imagine is being so irretrievably lost?

Old statues are cool, and they get cooler the longer you leave them standing. It lets you feel like you're stepping back in time.

My question to you is, why do you care as a Scottish person? Polls have shown that the majority of Americans want to keep the statues, so shouldn't that settle the discussion?

 

[jackelgull]

I can't help but notice all the outrage towards Confederate Statues seems to be entirely manufactured. Anyways, I support leaving them where they are because they have been there for so long as to become a "historical" part of that land. There's no need to be offended by them. We have seen that people can become offended over any statues if they want. Actually we see this happening now as people call for statues of the founding fathers and other Europeans to be removed. When are people going to realize that they're not "toppling white supremacy", just destroying history?

You're right, without those confederate statues the true history of the civil war would be lost. You have no idea the expense to which my history teachers went to drag a bonafide confederate statue into school, through which all possible knowledge of the civil war was transferred. The story of Gettysburg really needs Nathaniel Bedsfords crazy eyes to be told truly.

On a more serious note the toppling of the confederacy statues isn't going to lead to a reflex toppling of all statues, rather, it will lead to a more nuanced dialouge of who we celebrate in our public spaces with monuments and what they actually represented.

 

[Lexicus]

through which all possible knowledge of the civil war was transferred.

They just needed to touch it, like the basketball in Space Jam.

 

[Traitorfish]

Old statues are cool, and they get cooler the longer you leave them standing. It lets you feel like you're stepping back in time.

They're not really that old. They're mostly from the 1920s through to the 1960s, and they're as a rule pretty shoddy as works of both sculpture and construction. Remember when those protesters pulled over that statue? That wouldn't have been possible if it had been properly affixed to its base, which apparently nobody thought was worth the time or expensive. These things are oversized novelty-items, the equivalent of putting a political bumper-sticker over your entire town. Trying to sell them as a heritage monuments is like trying to sell an old Ikea table as antique furniture.

My question to you is, why do you care as a Scottish person? Polls have shown that the majority of Americans want to keep the statues, so shouldn't that settle the discussion?

A majority of people in Charlottesville wanted that statue of Lee gone. Why didn't that settle the discussion?

Personally, I'm quite happy to leave this up whatever municipal, county, state or federal authorises have jurisdiction over any given statue. We're having this discussion because you and your Wolfenstein-reject pals are not.

 

[jackelgull]

They just needed to touch it, like the basketball in Space Jam.

There was some debate as whether textbooks could sufficiently educate the populace on history but that was dismissed because everyone knows they're for teaching religious ideals disguised as pseudoscience

 

[Lexicus]

they're as a rule pretty shoddy as works of both sculpture and construction.

They're essentially mass-produced knickknacks.

 

[civver_764]

A majority of people in Charlottesville wanted that statue of Lee gone. Why didn't that settle the discussion?

Did they? I was under the impression it was just a decision made by the city council. You can make the argument that it affects more than just the citizens of Charlottesville and is a matter of southern heritage in general.

Personally, I'm quite happy to leave this up whatever municipal, county, state or federal authorises have jurisdiction over any given statue. We're having this discussion because you and your Wolfenstein-reject pals are not.

Well, as American citizens I would say they have more claim to care about it than you do. Anyways I don't really care about the statue that much, but it provides a convenient rallying point for the right-wing to oppose what they see as a cultural genocide. Surely you can understand their opposition to such a thing, whether or not you agree with their interpretation of events.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Yale University doesn't have any Confederate statues but they are removing this:



IMO the use of Mayan art style it pretty cool and both figures seem evenly depicted which is really antithetical to the typical "Heroic European versus savage" motif in other depictions. Overall it's probably one of the few relevant depictions of a horrific local conflict that happened around Yale that hardly enough people know about. I don't buy the argument that removing Confederate statues will erase history, but in this case Yale should leave it be.

Anyway it's been given the 90s-Spielberg-treatment until it can be removed. Instead of a walkie-talkie, it looks like the pilgrim is offering a basket of Thanksgiving food to the Wampanoag warrior.

 

[Traitorfish]

Did they? I was under the impression it was just a decision made by the city council.

They elected councillors who on the record as supporting the removal of confederate monuments from public spaces. If that doesn't constitute support, it at least indicates acceptance. Whatever locals may have preferred the statue remain seem to have accepted its removal as a fact of changing times.

You can make the argument that it affects more than just the citizens of Charlottesville and is a matter of southern heritage in general.

So buy the statue and put it up in your own town, or on private property. State a GoFundMe or something. You can't force a town to maintain some gee-gaw because you've become suddenly, inexplicably invested in.

Well, as American citizens I would say they have more claim to care about it than you do. Anyways I don't really care about the statue that much, but it provides a convenient rallying point for the right-wing to oppose what they see as a cultural genocide. Surely you can understand their opposition to such a thing, whether or not you agree with their interpretation of events.

I understand the opposition, I just don't really understand what they plan to do about it. So far, the strategy seems to consists of yelling about Jews and then committing domestic terrorism.

Not really clear what the over-arching plan is, there.

 

[Lexicus]

inexplicably

*suffers a coughing fit*

 

[civver_764]

They elected councillors who on the record as supporting the removal of confederate monuments from public spaces. If that doesn't constitute support, it at least indicates acceptance. Whatever locals may have preferred the statue remain seem to have accepted its removal as a fact of changing times.

So buy the statue and put it up in your own town, or on private property. State a GoFundMe or something. You can't force a town to maintain some gee-gaw because you've become suddenly, inexplicably invested in.

Nobody is trying to "force" the town to do anything, they are simply stating their opposition to the decision. That's the basic idea of any protest. And funnily enough, GoFundMe has pretty much banned any "Alt-Right" causes from its website.

I understand the opposition, I just don't really understand what they plan to do about it. So far, the strategy seems to consists of yelling about Jews and then committing domestic terrorism.

Actually the plan was to listen to speeches from several right-wing speakers. Unforuntately the domestic terrorism organization "Antifa" managed to cause enough violence to get the rally shut down before anyone could speak, which was pretty much their stated goal. It is also clear the law enforcement and Charlottesville collaborated with Antifa by "standing down" and allowing the Unite the Right attendees to be attacked. In fact, the ACLU has echoed these same sentiments and a lawsuit is currently being filed against the city of Charlottesville for their suppression of the First Amendment and failure to protect rally attendees.

As for the "domestic terrorism"...yeah no. This was clearly an episode of road rage (dude's car was being attacked by the mob) or panic. And even if it was domestic terrorism, you can't say it was the "plan" since nobody organizing the rally advocated for any violence. The plan was to have a peaceful event for different right-wingers to meet each other, share ideas, listen to speeches, and overall strengthen the movement.

 

[Traitorfish]

Nobody is trying to "force" the town to do anything, they are simply stating their opposition to the decision. That's the basic idea of any protest.

The protest was evidently not intended to win the hearts and minds of the residents of Charlottesville. It was intended as a display of force- moral force, you might say, rather than physical force, but force all the same. The right of a civic community to decide what monuments adorn its public places was not a consideration.

And funnily enough, GoFundMe has pretty much banned any "Alt-Right" causes from its website.

So don't make it a Nazi thing. Jeez, how long do you expect me to to hold your hand?

Actually the plan was to listen to speeches from several right-wing speakers. Unforuntately the domestic terrorism organization "Antifa" managed to cause enough violence to get the rally shut down before anyone could speak, which was pretty much their stated goal. It is also clear the law enforcement and Charlottesville collaborated with Antifa by "standing down" and allowing the Unite the Right attendees to be attacked. In fact, the ACLU has echoed these same sentiments and a lawsuit is currently being filed against the city of Charlottesville for their suppression of the First Amendment and failure to protect rally attendees.

Wait, do you actually think there's an organisation called "Antifa"?

As for the "domestic terrorism"...yeah no. This was clearly an episode of road rage (dude's car was being attacked by the mob) or panic. And even if it was domestic terrorism, you can't say it was the "plan" since nobody organizing the rally advocated for any violence. The plan was to have a peaceful event for different right-wingers to meet each other, share ideas, listen to speeches, and overall strengthen the movement.

I was clearly being facetious. I'm sure the fascists had a grand little festival planned, shouting about all kinds of minorities. But they couldn't make it through twenty-four hours without killing people, and we're supposed to pretend like these goons are interested in the civic process?

 

[civver_764]

The protest was evidently not intended to win the hearts and minds of the residents of Charlottesville. It was intended as a display of force- moral force, you might say, rather than physical force, but force all the same. The right of a civic community to decide what monuments adorn its public places was not a consideration.

I would say it was intended to signal to the entire nation (and Trump) that there is a lot of support for right-wing/nationalist ideals. And again, nobody is trying to force this community to do anything. They weren't saying "leave this statue up or we'll commit X act of violence" they were saying "hey look at all these people who would really rather you left these statues up."

Wait, do you actually think there's an organisation called "Antifa"?

Yep. Several of them. They show up at pretty much any right-wing event with the intent of shutting it down, it's extremely annoying. Why do you think so many of the Unite the Right attendees brought shields? They know the drill at this point. Fact is, there would have been no violence had Antifa not incited it.

I was clearly being facetious. I'm sure the fascists had a grand little festival planned, shouting about all kinds of minorities. But they couldn't make it through twenty-four hours without killing people, and we're supposed to pretend like these goons are interested in the civic process?

Who is this "they"? Since when is guilt by association a valid thing? Do you also condemn all Muslims for Islamic terrorist attacks? Do you condemn all liberals for the Steve Scalise shooting? Do you condemn all Communists for Antifa's violence? Don't think so.