Should this lass be thrown out of the US of A ?

[MobBoss]

And if a law is not enforced at all for decades, and officials look the other way, then people are just going to assume nobody cares and continue to break the law, be it jaywalking, illegal immigration, not paying their taxes, or whatever.

By refusing to enforce a law, the message to the community becomes "It's alright to do this" - which is one of the main reasons why there is such a huge illegal immigrant problem these days.. right?

Except that these laws are being enforced, just not enough or evenly across all states where there are such problems.

You seem to assume the community is in favor of illegal immigration just ignoring the law. I think what happened in Arizona proves otherwise. Citizens are really getting fed up with this issue, and the federal and state governments will ignore it at their own peril.

 

[downtown]

It hasn't always been that stark. GWB actually had good success with Hispanics while Gov of Texas.

After the immigration protests in 2005-2006, lots of Latins started to think that some folks in GOP Leadership were a little bit rasist.

 

[warpus]

Except that these laws are being enforced, just not enough or evenly across all states where there are such problems.

You seem to assume the community is in favor of illegal immigration just ignoring the law. I think what happened in Arizona proves otherwise. Citizens are really getting fed up with this issue, and the federal and state governments will ignore it at their own peril.

I don't know man, a whole bunch of posters told me that the authorities looked the other way while millions of illegal immigrants made the U.S. their home.. (this was in some other thread; I can't quite remember which one) for over 20 years..

Sure, NOW they are starting to enforce immigration laws, it seems. They were just sending the wrong message to illegal immigrants for the past couple decades.. message being "come on in, we don't care".

 

[Merkinball]

This is more or less just empty rhetoric. - Traitorfish

Oh yeah man, it's not like you're talking to a guy who lived in Africa for two years, and tried to help numerous people get visa's to come here for two years, or had a relationship with a female in that country for two years. No, it's totally empty rhetoric. You're right.

That's not really relevant to what you actually said, though. Legislation which aids illegal immigrants makes no preferences for ethnicity or nationality other than those which are implied by the particular geographic circumstances I referred to; the legislation may be motivated by the prevalence of illegals of a particular ethnicity or nationality, but this is in response to existing realities, as you yourself acknowledge. - Traitorfish

It may not be what I directly said, but it was an elaboration explaining the foundation on my prior comment. And you know it.

I find it hard to believe that Hispanics in the US are as superficial as you think they are. Believe it or not many of them are themselves opposed to illegal immigration and consider other things when they cast a vote. Even so how is consolidating even 30,000,000 votes while alienating the other 200,000,000 votes a sound political strategy for Republicans or Democrats? - Bugfatty

Because they won't alienate 200,000,000 voters? Both parties have nothing to lose, and everything to gain from this. From the Republican side, they may lose some face at the border, but not a lot. People aren't going to start voting for Obama in Texas just because a Republican pushes amnesty. Meanwhile, pushing amnesty is the only way Democrats could ever hope to build long term gains in those same states

If you're really concerned with being FAIR then you would let anyone and everyone enter the country as they wished. The world isn't fair. - Bugfatty

Prima facie immigration isn't fair to anybody.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't know man, a whole bunch of posters told me that the authorities looked the other way while millions of illegal immigrants made the U.S. their home.. (this was in some other thread; I can't quite remember which one) for over 20 years..

I am sure if you check the official records you will find plenty of people arrested/detained across America for illegal immigration and deported. But like I said, it wasnt done either effectively or nearly enough to make a difference, but it wasnt simply just ignored.

 

[Traitorfish]

Oh yeah man, it's not like you're talking to a guy who lived in Africa for two years, and tried to help numerous people get visa's to come here for two years, or had a relationship with a female in that country for two years. No, it's totally empty rhetoric. You're right.

I am, yes. It was illogical sentimental babble with no bearing on the topic at hand. Empty rhetoric, nothing more, and no clumsily executed appeals to irrelevant authority will change that.

It may not be what I directly said, but it was an elaboration explaining the foundation on my prior comment. And you know it.

It explained your personal objections, yes, but it did nothing to refute my counter-point to your initial tirade.

 

[warpus]

I am sure if you check the official records you will find plenty of people arrested/detained across America for illegal immigration and deported. But like I said, it wasnt done either effectively or nearly enough to make a difference, but it wasnt simply just ignored.

My dad went to work in New Jersey about 10 years ago - virtually everyone doing home construction with him was an illegal worker. Nobody seemed to care.

I was told by others that this is pretty much true across the country.

 

[MobBoss]

My dad went to work in New Jersey about 10 years ago - virtually everyone doing home construction with him was an illegal worker. Nobody seemed to care.

I was told by others that this is pretty much true across the country.

Yeah, you said you were told this. And I tell you people still were getting arrested/detained and then deported. Its never been simply ignored, its been under enforced.

 

[warpus]

And that's one of the reasons I have some sympathy for these people... People didn't seem to mind because they were doing jobs regular Americans just don't want to do.. but now there is all this outrage, for whatever reason, and they are getting the shaft.

I see the other point of view too, of course..

 

[Formaldehyde]

It hasn't always been that stark. GWB actually had good success with Hispanics while Gov of Texas.

It's only going to get better as the "law-and-order" Republicans shoot themselves repeatedly in both feet. Eventually, it will dawn on most of the rest of the Latinos.

After the immigration protests in 2005-2006, lots of Latins started to think that some folks in GOP Leadership were a little bit rasist.

Gee, I wonder why?

And that's one of the reasons I have some sympathy for these people... People didn't seem to mind because they were doing jobs regular Americans just don't want to do.. but now there is all this outrage, for whatever reason, and they are getting the shaft.

That has historically occurred to at least one recent immigration group during times of economic downturn. Suddenly, the more right-wing ones forget their ancestors were also immigrants at some point and start babbling "Dey dook ur jerbs".

 

[otago]

We do need folks who are trained craftsmen. Absolutely. But they need to be able to find their way out of a wet paper bag as well. They should be able to formulate their opinions using calculus of logic, not visceral emotions. Most tradespeople are cogs in a system. Not independently functioning individuals. Tradespeople can get just as much use out of a quality education as skilled white collar professionals such as you or I. The military certainly will provide you skills to be a cog. But it does not provide you a number of skills that are required to find your own root philosophy of life, or balance a check book, or understand compound interest, or do reasonable cost benefit analysis, or make a well informed vote, etc.

LOL, wonder how this old tradesman can run a business without the benefit of a degree that tells me to use logic in solving problems that come up.
Problems like an idiot with an engineering degree who believed he knew it all at age twenty five and had no need to take any advice from a tradesman.

Tough for him when he got fired for insisting that his idiot idea be used.

 

[Traitorfish]

That has historically occurred to at least one recent immigration group during times of economic downturn. Suddenly, the more right-wing ones forget their ancestors were also immigrants at some point and start babbling "Dey dook ur jerbs".

In all fairness, it's only really the ancestors of the Catholic, Jewish and Asian right-wingers that duk der jarbs, and so can be accused of any hypocrisy. The ancestors of the Protestants right-wingers simply slaughtered the existing population and created new jobs. Far simpler, far cleaner. Perhaps the illegals could take a page out of that book?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Or they can do what our founding fathers did. Declare independence from those who would not properly represent their interests and form a new country within its borders.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Or they can do what our founding fathers did. Declare independence from those who would not properly represent their interests and form a new country within its borders.

But then we would have to build a fence to keep Red southern states out of the USA !!!

 

[Merkinball]

I am, yes. It was illogical sentimental babble with no bearing on the topic at hand. Empty rhetoric, nothing more, and no clumsily executed appeals to irrelevant authority will change that. - Traitorfish

Not only is it logical, but it absolutely has a bearing on the topic at hand. Fact: Illegals here today impact the legal immigration process tomorrow.

 

[MobBoss]

And that's one of the reasons I have some sympathy for these people... People didn't seem to mind because they were doing jobs regular Americans just don't want to do.. but now there is all this outrage, for whatever reason, and they are getting the shaft.

But its more than just 'jobs'...its also health care costs, education costs, crime, etc. They arent getting the shaft, they are simply facing a standard that needs to be enforced. The standard of legal immigration should be the same no matter where the immigrant is from, even Mexico.

I see the other point of view too, of course..

Odd, you dont seem to comment too much about that.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I have a proposal to address immigration. Immigrants of both stripes - legal and illegal - come here for the most part to find jobs. Where the illegals get an advantage is they can work for below minimum wage, and greedy individuals exploit this(not the people; they choose to work for lower wages, I don't buy liberal "blah blah exploitation" crap). Heck, sometimes places pay REGULAR Americans below minimum wage and are never caught.

So, two proposals:

Extreme - Abolish the minimum wage, replace it with a general welfare state. This way, Americans can be just as competitive as the immigrants(wage bargaining), and the welfare state will cover all the gaps. Welfare is more fair than the minimum wage anyway, since it can cover anybody; the minimum wage only rocks if you're employed.

Less extreme - keep the minimum wage, but allow opt-outs. If the minimum wage is 6 dollars, and you want to work for 5, what right does the government have to stop you? Employers should have to offer the minimum wage as a starting wage, but employees should be free to work below it if necessary. Again, the welfare state covers all who fall through the holes.

Replacing the minimum wage with general welfare is, again, more fair, since it covers all people and not just the employed. There is no difference between being paid six dollars an hour and being paid one dollar an hour and collecting welfare amounts to five dollars per hour. Short of maybe the costs of collecting welfare.

The question is: would it be more efficient, due to government bureaucracy involved?

Anyway, I'm just throwing out some alternatives to transforming the border into the Berlin Wall. Feel free to point out any issues or problems that could arise from the proposal, since I'm sure there are several.

 

[PacoDeth]

I may be misreading something here, but I think a problem with that would be that companies would take advantage of the +welfare option and instead of paying their workers the usual $6, they would pay them less and let the gov't welfare take up the slack.

Kinda like these new hybrids which I believe car manufacturers are increasing the sale cost and using the $7500 gov't federal tax credit as a supposed incentive to make the price seem cheaper.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I may be misreading something here, but I think a problem with that would be that companies would take advantage of the +welfare option and instead of paying their workers the usual $6, they would pay them less and let the gov't welfare take up the slack.

I'm well-aware of that being a problem; so I propose keeping the minimum wage(meaning, the employers MUST legally offer that to you), but making it possible to opt out if you so wish and work for lower.

 

[nonconformist]

As to it being a bad thing, yes, it absolutely is. Part of the naturalization process is being assimilated to the language, culture and customs of the United States of America. We should allow people to move here that want to be Americans....not people that want to move here and turn America into their version of the country they came from. Take for example the recent fuss over the Cinco De Mayo holiday. If people are going to be viewed as troublemakers for actually honoring the US flag, even on whats considered a hispanic holiday, then somethings wrong in America. Now, I am not saying we shouldnt celebrate Cinco De Mayo......I will be more than happy to tip a corona or dos equis with anyone, but dont use it as a rallying cry against America. Thats the wrong message to send...especially when one is actually IN the USA.

Yet your country practices Jus Solis....being a Mexican born here endows you with an inherent understanding of culture, language, and the desire to be a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN



This thread is hilarious..."Hurr, der mexicans are stealings our ejucation from our intelligent native population....durr, what can I do, join der army and get a welfare check for college"