Should Turkey be allowed to join the EU or not?

Mise said:
As you have correctly said, Doc, most of the good arguements against Turkey (economic ones, that is) could be said about many of the Eastern European nations currently in the EU. We appear to be making the same mistakes all over again, citing the first mistakes as a precident. There's enough problems in Europe already; at least lets solve those before taking on new ones.

Mistakes? Oh right :rolleyes:

You mean we are poor savages in desperate need of EU money? :lol: We've joined because it is profitable for us and you've took us in because it is profitable for you. We also believed that EU is an organization, that will respect us as equals. Maybe we were wrong at all :rolleyes:
 
Elrohir said:
Considering how Anti-Isreal and Pro-Palestine the EU is, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

The only mistake Europe makes on this matters, is holding our culturally linked brothers (Israel) to our own standards, whereas we don't do so with people from a culture that lacks any form of Freedom&Democracy.

In the end, despite heavy criticism on Israel, most EU countries are pro-Israel.
Your remark lacks any nuance, which is quite disturbing on this matter.
 
Mise said:
As you have correctly said, Doc, most of the good arguements against Turkey (economic ones, that is) could be said about many of the Eastern European nations currently in the EU. We appear to be making the same mistakes all over again, citing the first mistakes as a precident. There's enough problems in Europe already; at least lets solve those before taking on new ones.

We need more members to solve economic problems. Think of illegal production and sales of fake-brands in Turkey.
Economy works so fine. If you join markets in fair way, both parts will profit!

Your remark is pretty a backward conservative anti-EU slogan, fed by fear.
 
Stapel said:
We need more members to solve economic problems. Think of illegal production and sales of fake-brands in Turkey.
Economy works so fine. If you join markets in fair way, both parts will profit!
I don't mind solving pan-European economic problems in a laissez faire fashion. The EU, however, has a tendancy to demand (too) much of governments, and to interfere too much in their Economic policies. Free trade is all well and good, but the EU is not purely a free trade body. It still has the CAP, for example. I don't understand how we can solve economic problems in Turkey when we create them in WE.

Stapel said:
Your remark is pretty a backward conservative anti-EU slogan, fed by fear.
Yup :) I freely admit I know next to nothing about Europe, because no-one ever discusses it in the UK. People are either for it (but don't tell anyone why), against it (but don't know why), or don't care (because no-one's explained to me why I should care). Everyone's made up their minds already, so debates are pretty moot. Since I don't have any particular leaning in favour of EU enlargement, I have to question why it would be a good thing for me here in the UK.

Winner said:
We also believed that EU is an organization, that will respect us as equals.
If by "equals" you mean "give a disproportionate amount of power to poorer, less populous Eastern European countries", then I don't see why the UK should respect CZ as equals. But if you mean "give an amount of power in the EU proportional to the amount of economic power EE nations weild", then I'd say we do respect you as equals. The clear differences between the UK and CZ economies must be respected if I am to take the EU seriously as an economic entity.
 
Mise said:
I don't mind solving pan-European economic problems in a laissez faire fashion. The EU, however, has a tendancy to demand (too) much of governments, and to interfere too much in their Economic policies. Free trade is all well and good, but the EU is not purely a free trade body. It still has the CAP, for example. I don't understand how we can solve economic problems in Turkey when we create them in WE.

The funny thing is: If Turkey becomes a full members, we are more or less forced to get rid of CAP.
 
Rik Meleet said:
Getting rid of CAP is not a bad thing. If the farmers can't produce at cost efficiency they should stop.

I'm sure Stapel agrees with you that one ;) . We all do.

Who supports the CAP anyway?
 
Mise said:
If by "equals" you mean "give a disproportionate amount of power to poorer, less populous Eastern European countries", then I don't see why the UK should respect CZ as equals. But if you mean "give an amount of power in the EU proportional to the amount of economic power EE nations weild", then I'd say we do respect you as equals. The clear differences between the UK and CZ economies must be respected if I am to take the EU seriously as an economic entity.

No. By "equal" I mean the same rights and same duties in the legal sense. Something EU failed to do (except Britain, to be honest). And by "respect" I mean not using phrases like "poor Eastern Europeans", because they are both false and offensive.

I also don't use words like "traitors" to describe British or French (just remember the München Treaty...), although I can very well do this.

And BTW, we are not in Eastern Europe. We are in Central Europe. In Eastern Europe is Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.
 
I agree with getting rid of CAP though I think part of the problem is that farmers are not paid enough for their produce rather than the inefficiency of the farmers. In Britain almost all their produce is now sold to 4 supermarket chains who can demand low prices for the food. Farmers either need to subsidised by the government, obtain higher prices for food or be allowed to die out (the industry not the individuals). This doesn't apply to organic farmers so much as they can get higher prices and dont have the same foreign competition.
 
Winner said:
No. By "equal" I mean the same rights and same duties in the legal sense. Something EU failed to do (except Britain, to be honest). And by "respect" I mean not using phrases like "poor Eastern Europeans", because they are both false and offensive.
I don't think I ever said "poor Eastern Europeans". I said that Eastern European nations are poorer, which may be offensive, but is certainly true.

And BTW, we are not in Eastern Europe. We are in Central Europe. In Eastern Europe is Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.
I divide most places into "East" and "West", with "Central" reserved for a small (thin) segment in the middle (I consider "Central Europe" to be roughly the border between France and Germany). Maybe that's not accurate. I apologise if I grouped you with the likes of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. ;)
 
No Eastern Europe is Russia, Ukraine, Balarus. Central Europe is Austria, Germany (ish) Czech Repubilic, Hungary, Slovakia etc.
If you actually divide Europe in half the middle goes through Lithuania.
Describing central Europe as Eastern Europe is just a hang up from the cold war, the division between communist east and democratic west. Pre and post cold war the czech republic and other countries around there are considered central Europe.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
Much like Poland today faces restrictions, Turkey will have to live with pretty harsh moving restrictions for sure.

In that case I might not be so much against it.

Doc Tsiolkovski said:
I'm no expert about Danish crime statistics, but do Turkish people really differ from genuine Danish ones of the same social status? And, do those statistics consider crimes a Dane cannot commit at all (like violating rules that only apply to foreigners, registration e.g.)?
Yes. Immigrants in general commit between twice and three times as many crimes as the average Dane.
Of course some of these are probably those cases you decribe, but it surely dosn't explain it all.

Source: http://www.bt.dk/leder:aid=328296/ (It's in Danish, but the part you wanna look at, the very beginning, can easily be translated by a dictionary)


Hakim, Sweden has been very good at integrating immigrants compared to Denmark. I wish our politicians would share experience more often.
 
First, what is the 'EU' supposed to be?

E.U. ,Like U.N. and U.S., is based upon the Roman idealogy of a universialism, a single safe homeland for millions of diffirent peoples and cultures.

EU whatever its becoming, is very great thing to happen.
 
We don't need Turkey in the EU to trade freely with them
We don't need Turkey in the EU to profit from their cheap labor force
We don't need Turkey in the EU to get them to put pressure on the democratization process in the Arab world
We don't need Turkey in the EU to profit from their geopolitical position in the world
We don't need Turkey in the EU to help us fight terrorism
We don't need Turkey in the EU because of the so called demographic problems in the EU

We get all those things for free, without them in the union. On the other hand there are loads of extra problems we are going to face with Turkey IN the union. I don't see how that's worth it.

btw. Remember Barosso which the Liberal European parlement didn't like because of his religious opinions? Those same people welcome Turkey in the union, are they naive or ignorant?
 
I think people view Turkey as some religious state based on Islamic rule which is very incorrect. Turkey is a secular state and letting it join the EU with further strengthen its democracy. the moves Turkey has moved towards liberal democracy need to be rewarded.

By the beginning of the 20th Century the drive for modernity and the politicisation of a Turkish ethnic identity became the priority of an emerging Turkish nation, which until then identified itself in terms of religion.

But with the loss of Arab Muslim territories after 1918, an identity based on Islam proved to be inadequate.

The increasing emphasis on Turkishness was aided by new literary genres, which did not exist in the classical Ottoman literature. These were borrowed from Europe and helped develop today's colloquial Turkish.

It reinforced a new Turkish identity nurtured by the civilisations of Asia and the vision of the future anchored in the West.

The Turks probably are the only nation to have turned modernity into their national religion and Islam into the source of their individual spiritual faith.

The overwhelming majority of Turks share this unique feature of being good Muslims, and Turks and Europeans at the same time.

Despite its origins, contemporary Turkey is a new society - the result of a "melting pot" similar to the one that produced the United States.

Between 1856 and 1980 some nine to ten million former Ottoman Muslim subjects belonging to different ethnic and linguistic groups immigrated from the Balkans and the Caucasus to settle in Anatolia.

Despite a number of setbacks - military coups, human rights issues - modern Turkey has emerged from the embers of the Ottoman empire as a dynamic society with a "Euro-Islamic" faith and a pro-European outlook.

The formation of a new Turkish identity and nation-state have parallels, not in the Muslim world but in the West.

These processes were set in motion through philosophical debates among Islamists, nationalists, Turkists and pro-Europeanists. These developed into new ideological foundations which guided the new Republic's policies after 1923.

The modernist agenda was greatly accelerated during the rule of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who is credited with having created a new state and society.

The "newness" of the Republic and its creator have become sacred myths in Turkey.

Yet practically all of Ataturk's reforms, including the acceptance of a new alphabet, were discussed in a variety of ways after 1870.

Ataturk synthesised the main ideas of preceding decades and applied those measures that could produce a modern, secular and democratic nation sure of its own identity.

He ignored much of the Ottoman legacy, not necessarily because he rejected the value of historical knowledge, but to forestall irredentist and pan-Turkist, pan-Islamic movements.

Above all, he was a modernist and secularist who unequivocally accepted contemporary civilization for national survival.

Ataturk was a Turkish nationalist and believed in the existence of a nation with its own unique culture and identity, like other nations.

He was a dedicated modernist and accepted Europe as the source of civilisation and modernity - the main goals of the new republic.

To borrow a political slogan, Turkey identifies itself as national and Islamic secular in form and European in content and it will preserve this character, regardless of the outcome of its candidacy for membership of the EU.

Membership will greatly strengthen Turkish democracy and become an example for other nations to emulate. The Turks have managed to modernise and Europeanise themselves, but the job is not yet finished.

The EU holds concerns about the stability of democracy in Turkey and its history of human rights abuses.

But it also knows that Turkey holds influence across the Middle East and Central Asia - with which it shares language, culture and historical ties.

In 1915, the Young Turks leader Enver Pasha envisaged a Turkish empire expanding east across Central Asia. But after World War I, Ataturk focused on consolidating the land the new Turkish nation was left with.

But Central Asia is back on the agenda. The independence of Caucasian and Central Asian states has reopened the region.

Economically, the region offers new markets for Turkish products. And Turkey can offer help to the region on how to integrate with the West, both economically and politically.

So, if Turkey is able to maintain its image as a developing, progressive democracy dedicated to freedom and progress, not only will it succeed in joining the EU, but it will have a greater say in world affairs.


Turks have faced a long journey to Europe. But that journey is still not over.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4094873.stm
 
Shaihulud said:
Well if EU doesn't want Turkey to join but is too embarrassed to say it out right, why don't you set it some impossible task, such as; "Before you can join the sacred EU, you must make peace between the Palestine and Israel".

Let's be careful here...Turkey is maybe the best suited candidate for that job, if it really cares. Israel and Turkey are closely cooperating anyway, since they share almost all strategical goals in the region (another argument against the religious fanaticism in Turkey), and as a Muslimic country, it also has quite some influence among Palestinians...


Winner: I do agree with the comment a lot of mistakes have been made when joining all those Central/ Eastern/ Southern European countries last may. Most important, to guarantee them all to join. If it would have been done correctly, some of the canditates would have been rejected in 2004.
Poland - pop majority didn't want to join; Latvia - the legal disadvantages of the Russian population; Cyprus - as if you have to ask.
That was the mistake, not your country, or Slovenia ;).

All those arguing about religion: Turkey is almost fanatically secular. In fact, the biggest question was if the military (who sees itself in the role of a 'Guardian of Laizism') would allow the democratically elected, moderate Islamists, and don't make a Coup d'Etat again...
Argueing about the fact the population is not Christian mainly is viable; but Turkey is definitely not a Islamistic State.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
All those arguing about religion: Turkey is almost fanatically secular. In fact, the biggest question was if the military (who sees itself in the role of a 'Guardian of Laizism') would allow the democratically elected, moderate Islamists, and don't make a Coup d'Etat again...
Argueing about the fact the population is not Christian mainly is viable; but Turkey is definitely not a Islamistic State.

It's indeed not a Islamistic state, that is because the army would intevine once a Islamic regime would be elected. The army is the one factor that's preventing Turkey from going Islamic.

That on itself is a pretty bad situation. One we definetly shouldn't want in the EU. But now the EU is also pressuring Turkey to lower the power of the army, and thus lower the power of the safeguard against fundamentalism. That would be even worse.

Having a democracy under threat from an army coup d'etat is bad, lower the power of the army is even worse. However way you look at it the Turkish democracy is far from stable, and a factor we don't need in the EU.

I can't believe how optimistic all you pro-Turkish people are about this situation. You are making a gamble with the future of the EU at stake. And for what? For very unclear and very uncertain advantages that you invision for the European Union.

I can't believe people who care so much for the EU would risk the future of that organisation by letting Turkey in with such unclear advantages and such clear disadvantages for US.
 
I don not see any reasons to keep EU clear from a country whos ppl are mainly Muslim.
As Doc T. I'd prefer to give MacPom back to whoever wants that crap and take Turkey instead.
If they would be Christians mainly, be honest, there would be not even a hint of a discussion.
We don't need Turkey in the EU to trade freely with them
We don't need Turkey in the EU to profit from their cheap labor force
We don't need Turkey in the EU to get them to put pressure on the democratization process in the Arab world
We don't need Turkey in the EU to profit from their geopolitical position in the world
We don't need Turkey in the EU to help us fight terrorism
We don't need Turkey in the EU because of the so called demographic problems in the EU
Taking without giving shall make your hands foul from you body!
 
Back
Top Bottom