Should we get rid of the food brand protection ?

[warpus]

Then this is, plainly and simply, a matter of brand protection:

Sure, but my point of contention is that in this particular market the terms that we are being asked to protect have become generic in nature. It would be like asking companies to stop using the word "velcro". You could, but consumers know velcro as velcro, so logic wins out in the end, unfortunately for the company who first started selling velcro.

I would be surprised if there weren't a compromise that would protect the rights of local artisans, farmers, and cheese producers in Italy, as well as the rights of local artisans, farmers, and cheese producers & as well as consumers here in Canada. Perhaps it is exactly what you suggested earlier, but somehow I don't think that would fly.

 

[Takhisis]

Sure, but my point of contention is that in this particular market the terms that we are being asked to protect have become generic in nature.

Same as with the mustard, then.

 

[warpus]

Same as with the mustard, then.

Yeah, it sounds like it. But I don't really know enough about that to really say, so I don't want to make it sound like I'm saying "YEAH IT'S EXACTLY LIKE THE MUSTARD THING".

 

[Takhisis]

I'm saying "YEAH IT'S EXACTLY LIKE THE MUSTARD THING".

I will misquote this for all of eternity.

 

[Cheetah]

Canadians have been buying "parmesan" cheese to grate over their spaghetti for generations. You can't just change a generic food name to something else as easily as "we'll just pass some laws". People are set in their ways. And we know parmesan to be "a cheese you grate over your spaghetti"

People will go to the store and they will see "Parmesan" and they will see "Hard Italian cheese" or whatever. They will look on their shopping list and they will see "parmesan". That has been the family recipe for 300 years, so that's what's on their recipe. So that's what they buy.

Local cheese producers will be hit, as less people will buy local products, and consumers will be hit as they will be mis-directed towards much more expensive foreign products, and steered away from much cheaper local ones.

While Homo Economicus doesn't exist, consumers aren't complete zombies either. If the price of what is then called parmesan is suddenly much higher, and the packaging looks different from the usual packaging, and a familiar packaging with a familiar price lies next to it, I'm sure people will start to think a bit.

If they are happy with their current "parmesan", they'll presumably go with "hard italian cheese". And if they actually want parmesan, then they'll get it, and learn a bit of food culture in the same go!

 

[Silurian]

Sure, but my point of contention is that in this particular market the terms that we are being asked to protect have become generic in nature. It would be like asking companies to stop using the word "velcro". You could, but consumers know velcro as velcro, so logic wins out in the end, unfortunately for the company who first started selling velcro.

This is nonsense

https://www.velcro.com/about-us/

Velcro is a trade marked product.
if you market your alternative as velcro you will be sued

Alternatives such as 3M Dual lock are not called velcro.

https://www.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/compa...710676+8710815+8710962+8711017+8716423&rt=r3#

 

[warpus]

While Homo Economicus doesn't exist, consumers aren't complete zombies either. If the price of what is then called parmesan is suddenly much higher, and the packaging looks different from the usual packaging, and a familiar packaging with a familiar price lies next to it, I'm sure people will start to think a bit.

If they are happy with their current "parmesan", they'll presumably go with "hard italian cheese". And if they actually want parmesan, then they'll get it, and learn a bit of food culture in the same go!

You're asking people to undo centuries of programming. I don't know why you think this can just happen with the snap of a finger. If all of the common food products in Norway were suddenly called something else, without warning, I'm sure there would be chaos and complaints there too.

This is nonsense

https://www.velcro.com/about-us/

Velcro is a trade marked product.
if you market your alternative as velcro you will be sued

Nope, here are their guidelines:

Follow the word “BRAND” with the correct generic term. “VELCRO® brand” must be followed by the generic name of the tape or fastener, such as “hook-and-loop fastener” or “touch fastener”. For example, you might say “Our product featuresgenuine VELCRO® brand fasteners.”

Their patent expired 40 years ago. It is now a generic term like parmesan

 

[Arwon]

Centuries!

 

[Broken_Erika]

I though the Velcro patent was held by the MIB.

 

[Silurian]

Nope, here are their guidelines:

Their patent expired 40 years ago. It is now a generic term like parmesan

Yes nonsense.

from velcro

Trademark Guidelines

1. The VELCRO® mark can be used only in connection with genuine VELCRO® Brand products. Do not use the VELCRO® mark in any manner with third party product, including, without limitation, by using the phrase “Velcro-like,” or other comparative manner.

https://www.velcro.com/about-us/trademark-guidelines/

Trademarks and patents are different things

 

[Takhisis]

This is nonsense

https://www.velcro.com/about-us/

Velcro is a trade marked product.
if you market your alternative as velcro you will be sued

Alternatives such as 3M Dual lock are not called velcro.

https://www.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/compa...710676+8710815+8710962+8711017+8716423&rt=r3#

Actually, it's very much called velcro (lowercase v) in many countries, regardless of what the brand is.

I though the Velcro patent was held by the MIB.

*flashes a light into Broken_Erika's face* There is no such thing as Men in Black, except for people who actually like to wear black clothes which is cool. There's no ancient conspiracy, no alien invaders, and no such thing as a legal permit for little furry cartoons to wield chainsaws. Oh, and you can stay up for half an hour longer than usual and eat two more Oreos than usual tomorrow for breakfast. Enjoy your Oreos, and Synsensa's totally wrong about Oreos being the worst.

 

[Silurian]

Actually, it's very much called velcro (lowercase v) in many countries, regardless of what the brand is.

Yes but the people selling it can not call it velcro or they will be sued

The customers can call it what they like but that is a different thing

Sure, but my point of contention is that in this particular market the terms that we are being asked to protect have become generic in nature. It would be like asking companies to stop using the word "velcro". You could, but consumers know velcro as velcro, so logic wins out in the end, unfortunately for the company who first started selling velcro.

Warpus is arguing that there is no trademark for velcro.
But velcro is trademarked.

 

[Quintillus]

Parts of food origin protection are certainly silly. Why, in the middle of America, are the two brands of sparkling water my store carries Gerolsteiner (Germany) and San Pelligrino (Italian)? That's a really long journey. And I agree with cheese as well. In the U.S., gouda can come from Wisconsin, Vermont, any state that makes cheese. And I know what it tastes like, and that it's one of my favorite cheeses. It's great in the Netherlands, too, but it would be silly to ship all of that cheese from the town of Gouda. It would also probably mean far less gouda cheese, which would be sad.

One of the interesting things from the Trump Tariffs is Mexico agreeing to E.U. protection-of-origin demands for cheeses, such as asiago. It has led to what was suggested on the first page - American manufacturers coming up with their own names for the types of cheese. But that has led to a significant (30-40%) drop in sales. And you can see why. If my favorite type of cheese were asiago, I'd be suspicious of buying something that wasn't called asiago.

Of course, if you want to (accurately) label your cheese as gouda from the Netherlands, or from the town of Gouda, by all means do so. And if someone really wants gouda from Gouda, they can buy it. But I agree that in general, sparkling water shipped across the ocean, mandating all cheese of a certain type be from Italy, etc. is silly from a commercial and environmental perspective. Good for certain regions like Champagne, no doubt. But not really the best thing for the world as a whole.

I should also note that I am not opposed to regulating for quality of certain terms. If you want to say a certain grade of pancetta is made one way, or that ice cream must have at least X% cream, by all means do so. Being able to distinguish that sort of thing can be useful. But if someone in Poland can make pancetta of the same quality and be the same process as someone in Parma, why can't they sell it as the same grade?

 

[warpus]

Warpus is arguing that there is no trademark for velcro.
But velcro is trademarked.

No, I am saying that you can't legally sell things marketed as "Velcro (r)". It's not your product name so you can't use it as a product name. But you can legally market something labelled as: "This is zippedy zap, a type of velcro". You couldn't do that with a product name like "SONY" because that's not a generic trademark, like velcro is.

You know about generic trademarks, right? That's what I'm talking about.

In this case it would be like selling "Frank's cheese, it's a type of parmesan cheese" instead of trying to sell "This is parmesan from a specific region of Italy". The first one should be allowed, but not the latter (unless it's actually from that region). The Italians want to make the former illegal, which is silly, as that type of cheese is known by that specific name here, and nobody selling it here is claiming that it actually came from any specific region in Italy.

Just mandate all food products to have a clear label identifying exactly where it was made. Problem solved.

 

[Silurian]

No, I am saying that you can't legally sell things marketed as "Velcro (r)". It's not your product name so you can't use it as a product name. But you can legally market something labelled as: "This is zippedy zap, a type of velcro". You couldn't do that with a product name like "SONY" because that's not a generic trademark, like velcro is.

You know about generic trademarks, right? That's what I'm talking about.

In this case it would be like selling "Frank's cheese, it's a type of parmesan cheese" instead of trying to sell "This is parmesan from a specific region of Italy". The first one should be allowed, but not the latter (unless it's actually from that region). The Italians want to make the former illegal, which is silly, as that type of cheese is known by that specific name here, and nobody selling it here is claiming that it actually came from any specific region in Italy.

Just mandate all food products to have a clear label identifying exactly where it was made. Problem solved.

Velcro do not accept that velcro is a generic product.

Here is their trademark guidelines again.

1. The VELCRO® mark can be used only in connection with genuine VELCRO® Brand products. Do not use the VELCRO® mark in any manner with third party product, including, without limitation, by using the phrase “Velcro-like,” or other comparative manner.

They can sue if you pass off a product as theirs.

I posted a link to the similar 3M product dual lock.
I wonder why its not called velcro.

https://www.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/compa...710676+8710815+8710962+8711017+8716423&rt=r3#

Added

Action has been taken against other misinformed people on E bay and Amazon.

https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/forums/t/hook-and-loop-aka-velcro/109104

 

[warpus]

Velcro do not accept that velcro is a generic product.

If that is not a good example of a generic product/trademark, then there are plenty of others I could pull up instead, or you could pull up instead.

Clearly you must understand my position, even if this example is not a good one (I have no time to verify that it is or isn't so I'll take your word for it)