Sick Start

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Seraiel, Dec 14, 2011.

  1. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

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    I play huge/Marathon and I still prefer food and hammers for my capital. It's not that I disagree that one needs more commerce; I suspect that what's happening is that a +1 :commerce: isn't as big of a deal on huge maps as they are on normal maps (it's got nothing to do with Mara). That means that you can't just luck into the extra commerce. For example, the +1 from a river tile, while never great, is not neglible on Normal. It pretty much is for huge.

    The same logic applies to resources such as gold. You would need three gold resources to get the same spike in :commerce: as you do (I say three times as much, but I don't really know how fast costs increase with scale).
     
  2. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I prefer more balanced food:no-food tiles. Like 2x wet corn + 2x gold would beat this imo.

    Even on marathon you need to grow.
    this start certainly takes whipping capital out of question.

    If I take the artificial knowledge about some other tile south, then it's actually pretty good start... tough to judge if you would know it just from scouting though
     
  3. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    Moderator Action: @Everyone: stop insulting or otherwise attacking other users. You are welcome to discuss their posts in a civil[ized] manner, you are not welcome to pick a fight.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  4. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Spend a couple of turns finding some food - 2 golds in each of the first 2 cities will be oarsome.

    I'd try it but my poor laptop can't handle BUFFY. Random gripe here totally out of place but would it have hurt them to make the save formats compatible? (not picking a fight :))
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The problem with non-standard scaling issues is that our esteemed designers didn't even balance the default settings...

    You can see the slop in the "same peace treaty duration" and the fact that units are CHEAPER when they are MORE EFFECTIVE on the speed.

    Now, does mara boost the commerce value? Not really. This start has very similar value on normal vs mara; it's nowhere near an incredible start due to the slow growth opening, but way ahead of many possible starts because total food is not as horrid and you do have commerce.

    What makes this more attractive isn't mara, but rather that there are many more cities available than usual due to the huge map size, meaning that you can afford to expand onto more actually good early game sites.

    Tile sharing is an option with the capitol too. I would consider settling on the plains hill and losing a gold for a faster opening.

    However, I will never play a game like this out. Hitting end turn through the opening turns it's already taking >5 seconds too often. Late game turn times will be over 60 seconds...and with 1000's of turns potentially you could easily have 100+ at 60 seconds. Welcome to spending hours on waiting for the game, unable to do nothing. Maybe on an absolute beast mode machine it will be different...but in a game like this you're STILL likely to lose at least 1-2 hours.

    I don't blame others if it's their cup of tea, but it isn't mine. The highest difficulty here is making it through the game :p.
     
  6. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I played only on marathon setting for almost the entire learning period noble -> immortal, I have recently migrated to normal, I like the focus on worker turns, and the fact that micromanagment decisions play a bigger role.

    That games go quicker, and that I can play more games and learn more in the same period of time is a huge bonus.

    From what I judge of a high-commerce-low-food opening such as this, is that it has it's weaknesses, and those weaknesses are the same regardless of speed.

    It might be so, that the extra space on huge size setting, make early commerce more important, since you likely want to settle cities further away.
    I still think that food/production would be more important though.
     
  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    It's quite weird...
     
  8. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    And with that you're wrong ;) Commerce counts, test it. Play Huge Marathon and settle 20 Cities and try to afford them without gold, GLH and a shrine. In most of my games, I expand so fast, that I only reach Alphabet by Oracle cause research already stops after writing, and that is still fully in the expansion phase, where one goes from 20% research to 0% with -XX GPT.
     
  9. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    is it question of map size or question of speed?

    I tend to be on the side of "question of size". But I guess Huge and marathon was always assumed to be played as pairing... standard marathon is very unbalanced (in favor of human)
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    That's not unique though. You always need to pay the bills, and mara doesn't scale them differently.

    Everyone wants commerce resources; what they don't want is a capitol that is slow to set up new cities and slow to grow itself. For example a riverside site or two would match this in commerce quickly while a better food/hammer cap would out-produce this one badly.

    It's not bad to finance on huge, but you can definitely get better starts. There is a reason that HoF players usually roll for gems specifically!
     
  11. Habitus

    Habitus Emperor

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    Its not even that, 20 cities on standard settings cities would take gold, GLH, and a Shrine if settled early enough. Its easier to do this on either Huge or Marathon (due to either extra space or movement being quicker) and alot easier if both so it is just a more common problem with those settings.

    I'd actually play that start, as Riverside Corn makes the 4 Gold Food Neutral with city tile, some food plains to farm as well if needed :)

    The OP start I'd not play as the cow while a strong tile if paired with a higher food tile isnt so strong when all your tiles are going to be under 5 food
     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Converting hammers to commerce is much easer than the other way around.
    If you reach pottery and writing, you can dig yourself out of any hole with adeqvate number of hammers.

    Hammers -> workers -> cottages.
    Hammers -> settlers -> cities -> libraries -> specialists

    Catching up with commerce if you have good food/hammers is easy, compared to the other way around.

    If you have commerce, you can get better techs, you can upgrade units too, but you can't do that much for increasing hammers/food.

    I didn't say that commerce doesn't "count". I said that hammers/food is way more important than commerce.
     
  13. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Do they? Top 2 points game is tripple gold, couldn't look at many others, due to different patch version. And don't get me wrong, I would also take a quadruple gems start, but for Checker-Rush you need a plain Hill with a forrested plain Hill (or Gold-Mine-Hill) and tell me where you find that in combination with gems. Gems always come with green hills, at least in 99,5% of the cases.

    You forget the Checker-Rush. With Checker-Rush you have 15 Cities by 1500 BC, that's about 150 turns. By that time, on Marathon, you barely have writing, not to mention cottages. All you have is the pillaged gold and a tremendous deficit. And it's not easier on Huge but more difficult, as distance is higher and maintenance also.

    I don't wanna offend you, but you're what is called a "keyboard jockey". You argument theoretically, without knowing the exact circumstances of a Huge Marathon Deity game. Problem is not growth, and problem is not production, problem is commerce. Try it out, take a high food high production start and Inca-rush 20 Cities till 1500 BC and tell me how you made it, I'd be glad if someone actually could show me.

    To your arguments:

    Hammers -> Workers -> Cottages

    On Marathon, earliest possible time to reach cottages is 80 without any extra commerce, leaving you 70 turns to construct cottages. Each Cottage takes 15-20 turns so thats 3-4 cottages per city + 1 farm. 15 Cities, 10 commerce, 4 production, 1 GP Farm = 30-40 cottages = 60-80 commerce, let's say 80 because you built lots of cottages near rivers. 80 Commerce is exactly enough to support 10 cities with 1,5 workers / city + 1 unit guarding it, so even if you beelined cottages, you won't be able to support 15 cities by then. Don't believe me, test it, the math was done by me and verified by the data from my recent games, City Maintenance is 40 for 10 Cities not too far spread, Civic Upkeep is 20, and 20 is for the supply of the workers and the guarding units, with each city having a size of 3-5 which is exactly the 3-4 cottages + the farm.

    That means, if you beeline cottages, you will be at 0% research +-0 GPT without writing or anything with 10 cities, with 15 cities (which you'll likely have with Checker-rush) you will lose tons of GPT. And, in this case, most of the workers weren't even built, they were stolen.

    To your other argument:

    Hammers -> Settlers -> Cities -> Libraries -> Specialists

    15 Cities = 14 Settlers = 4200 Hammers + 21 Worker = 2500 Hammers + 15 Warriors = 450 Hammers = 7k Hammers base. 7k Hammers till turn 150 would mean about 50 Hammers / turn, just think about that number (!) . Oh, I forgot the Libraries... 1 Library with HC is 270 Hammers, lets say 10 of your 15 cities are commerce / research, thats addition 2700 hammers so it's 10k hammers meaning 65 Hammers / turn and that FROM TURN 1!

    To say it in easy: You just won't have libraries till turn 150 on Marathon, because the research to writing already takes 150 turns without any extra-commerce, not even considering that you'd have to bring up 10k hammers for 15 cities with 20 workers 15 warriors and 10 libraries, which is IMPOSSIBLE! Considering what I've written before, about maintenance and upkeep, EVERY OF YOUR CITIES would have to be size 6-8 till then and work 1 farm rest cottages which again is IMPOSSIBLE!

    I hope you understand that, but Huge Marathon Deity is simply another game, and Checker-Rush is totally different, to what you talk of. With normal Settings and another Civ, you will never ever have 15 Cities by 1500 BC, which is normal with HC on Marathon Huge, and maintenance and upkeep is so tremendously high, you don't have to believe me, test it yourself, you either won't reach 15 cities till 1500 BC or you won't reach pottery / writing, your normal concepts do not work, I do not tell lies, when I say, that I tried it, even with + Failgold and Cottagespam, without GLH + Shrine you won't have any research with an empire of that size at that time, plz try it and show me how it's done.
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I have no idea what you are talking about.

    Checker rush? What is this?
    Settling 15 cities til 1500 BC?

    It seems to me, that you are adding more and more constraints, to better suit the conclusions you wish to draw.

    Ofcourse I am speaking theoretically. We have not agreed on any specific scenario to debate...

    It seems to me, however, that you have a very specific scenario in mind. (earliest possible domination?)

    If this is the case, you could ellaborate further.
     
  15. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I believe he's talking about a quecha rush and conquering enough cities to have 15 by 1500 BC. That is, after all, a start on deity/marathon with the inca.

    In this particular case, I could see why that's a good start, though I still think it's food poor and some of those gold would almost have to be worked by another city.
     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Oh, this is possibly the crucial piece of information I must have overlooked.
    :mischief:
     
  17. backthief

    backthief Chieftain

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    Can you please elaborate your point here. I usually feel like i MUST have at least one gold/silver/gem in my starter zone as well.

    thanks in advance,
     
  18. backthief

    backthief Chieftain

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    2nd Question. Exchanging those gold for gems in plains. That would be way better right?
     
  19. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    ;)

    I call them Checkers because they actually are (as long as they don't fight hill-archers :D)

    And yer, I'm talking about maximum points on a Huge Big & Small Map with low Sealvl, that's why the savegame is named so :p For that purpose one needs maximum start commerce to fuel the early expansion phase up to 20 cities. It's very specific, and this is a very very specific start for that purpose.

    But I really would be interessted, what other players suppose to be good starts, not especially for my purpose, I know already I need 1 plain Hill, 1 forrested plain Hill, 1 Gold Hill, at least 1 further Gold / Gems Hill, Food doesn't matter that much, as City will be small most of the size.

    I still don't see, why this start is considered low on Food with 4 FP's and 1 Rice if settled on the Gold in the S, or why it is considered low production, if there are like 4-5 green Hills and Gold-Hills are production + commerce, plain-cows are also awesome production.
     
  20. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Gems only occur on grassland or grassland hills, that's too little production for a Checker-Rush. And 2nd bad thing about gems is, that they mostly occur near the jungle, so near the equator, which is bad from two points of views. First, one doesn't want jungle and 2nd one does not want to start in the middle of the map between several empires with different religions. A nice niche corner near the sea is way better for strategic reasons, and that's also where the gold appears.
     

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