SilliNES2: Pure Story and World Building NES Succeeding? PFFFFF, YEAH RIGHT!

[Tycho]

I'm afraid that the form magic is taking is nothing like anything that would ever interest me.

I'll wait a bit, but I'll probably be dropping.

Dark gods, magic, steampunk/magictek, a necromancer army, power game assassinations, brutal and bloody rivalries, a history steeped in violence, what is not to love?

Come to think of it, this NES doesn't sound very silly all of a sudden. More like some sort of dystopic novel setting from Lovecraft.

 

[ork75]

I want magic to be like game of thrones - extremely inaccessible and weird. Highly unpredictable, to the point where most everything is technologically based and magic is merely a rare enhancer.

 

[Arrow Gamer]

I'd like to see magic as a mysterious force, not swords and spells and not manufactured goods and raw material. That's far more interesting to write about and to read about, in my opinion. If it's a magic node and as easy to exploit as oil, it loses its appeal as magic and instead becomes about as interesting in and of itself as oil is. While writing about wars over magic nodes is cool, we have a multitude of other natural resources to fill that slot.

Likewise, magitek can be interesting, but it passes out of magic (especially light magic) and into any of the -punk areas. Moreover, magic which is as easy to use as a musket is not anything resembling light or low magic, and is instead the worst plot device ever, because magic is no longer a mystery and instead a mass produced novelty which replaces all other commodities while simultaneously becoming Unobtanium and losing its status as magic and making for a boring story. A story about your envisioned magitek is, to me, the same as any other story in the 19th century with some random unobtanium introduced to the mix. We have a word for that: crap.

My ideal magic would be a subtle force which influences much of the story, but either indirectly or over the long term. Wizards would exist, but their magic is limited and their plans span years instead of seconds, as in mrandomplayer's outlined system for Phoenicia. To control magic is to prod it in your desired direction, not whip it into submission and ride it like a horse to plot-driven victories. To do so would result in insanity, and is a folly few would commit.

This system both is interesting while giving the south or flexibility in their approach to magic, as it is undefined in certain terms, defies limits and is a wild force to influence stories across the world. Moreover, it makes for interesting interplay with steampunk.

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Sorry about the poor quality of this post, but phones are a to write on, and I'm not particularly skilled either way.

Edit: @Tycho: I'm not refuting the history, the gods, the steampunk, the rivalries or the assassinations. Merely the magic.

 

[merciary]

So a quick summary of the regional uses of Magic (please feel free to correct me when I'm wrong):

The Americas: Magitech, or converting magical energies into other forms of energy typically kinetic

Mediterranean: more traditional "mages" and magic use

Germanic: Use of magical energy to enhance other forms of energy

African/Kongo: Religious based rituals to enhance the abilities of the target often with consequences (insanity)

Russian(If this still exist): A focus on ways to reanimate corpses (I'm thinking small scale here if we end up with a Light-ish magic setting)

French: unknown
British: unknown
Asian: unknown
Stafia: unknown

I'll update this as we decide things further.

 

[Terrance888]

Thank you Arrow for expressing that.

I just want to say something. Magic is magic. Please don't make it "Chemical X". Mana nodes are not Oil Wells, they are areas supersaturated with magic. Natural spells and other things happen at random. Magic should not be able to be solvable with science alone: Magic should, like it's source (consciousness), be mutable and change depending on each individual. Although techniques can be shared and taught, each person would use and manifest magic differently. This will be true no matter what kind of magic we end up: likely Light.

Above is CANON NO MATTER WHAT. Loose canon, but Canon. Below are ideas on how it can be expressed in game. Please discuss.

Now, on Magitech. Yes, it is real and part of our setting. However, I see it more as carefully hand crafted artifacts and magically empowered tools than mass produced stuff. We still have the 3000 musketeer analogy, but those 3000 Muskets took a year to make by a master crafter and tech priest (chief alchemist and gunsmith). Or something like that.

Now, on Industripunk. The Mage-engineers can make empowered steam engines, but I don't think they should be able to mass produce empowered steam engines. Magic is still individual and based on each person. However, utilizing empowered steam engines for factories and such is still a huge advantage. And this technology has ONLY STARTED TO APPEAR at this time.

Now, on Traditional Casting. I'm ok with anything as long as the above is taken into consideration. Formulas can still exist, but they would more be well advised guidelines than cookbooks.

On Ritual Casting, Great Power with Great Sacrifices is an interesting concept. Let's roll with it!

On Necrocracy: as long as it is a more ritual for each body necromancy vs wave hand and entire field of dead rises necromancy it should be pretty good and fit pretty well and not be wtflolpwned. Makes sense seeing the backstory, as each victim needs to be sacrificed individually.

 

[Crezth]

My ideas relate mainly to magitek as such. While I agree in principle that magic should be more mysterious, I don't imagine a great way to reconcile that with the magitek notions.

 

[Arrow Gamer]

In all honestly, I'm not a hundred percent sure magic should be able to meld with technogy unless both the technology and the magic are exquisitely wrought to work with one another through sacrifice and such.

I'm a big supporter of great sacrifices for great power. While Inheritance system works, I guess, for the smaller stuff, the big stuff requires huge sacrifices, usually either life or sanity, or both.

 

[Seon]

I'd like to see magic as a mysterious force, not swords and spells and not manufactured goods and raw material. That's far more interesting to write about and to read about, in my opinion. If it's a magic node and as easy to exploit as oil, it loses its appeal as magic and instead becomes about as interesting in and of itself as oil is. While writing about wars over magic nodes is cool, we have a multitude of other natural resources to fill that slot.

Likewise, magitek can be interesting, but it passes out of magic (especially light magic) and into any of the -punk areas. Moreover, magic which is as easy to use as a musket is not anything resembling light or low magic, and is instead the worst plot device ever, because magic is no longer a mystery and instead a mass produced novelty which replaces all other commodities while simultaneously becoming Unobtanium and losing its status as magic and making for a boring story. A story about your envisioned magitek is, to me, the same as any other story in the 19th century with some random unobtanium introduced to the mix. We have a word for that: crap.

My ideal magic would be a subtle force which influences much of the story, but either indirectly or over the long term. Wizards would exist, but their magic is limited and their plans span years instead of seconds, as in mrandomplayer's outlined system for Phoenicia. To control magic is to prod it in your desired direction, not whip it into submission and ride it like a horse to plot-driven victories. To do so would result in insanity, and is a folly few would commit.

This system both is interesting while giving the south or flexibility in their approach to magic, as it is undefined in certain terms, defies limits and is a wild force to influence stories across the world. Moreover, it makes for interesting interplay with steampunk.

---------------

Sorry about the poor quality of this post, but phones are a to write on, and I'm not particularly skilled either way.

Edit: @Tycho: I'm not refuting the history, the gods, the steampunk, the rivalries or the assassinations. Merely the magic.

The system also accounts for your point of view. It's what I would call mundanification.

In the Old Days, Magic would have had the same wonderous and mysterious qualities. People would not understand why supernatural occurrences happened. When the Mayans/Aztechs/whatever invented the so called 'magitek,' they proved that it was, in fact, nothing special.

This is why I hesitate to call Native American Magitek, Magitek. For the New World, the concept of magic would simply not exist. For them, it's science, it's technology. They would never call their equipment an "enchanted rifle" or "magical guns" because it's not magic. Pulling a rabbit out of a hat, sawing a lady in half, Making a car disappear now that is magic. Utilizing single-shot breech loaded rifle with Disintegration Shot made from the finest quality Mayanan or some other phlebotnium isn't. The formers are not normal. The latter is normal.

That is why I think that the New World people would piss their pants when they learn about the Old World in fear. There, the people are ruled by strange men with great power that they cannot simply understand because the concept of Magic doesn't exist for them. They can't accept that drawing some funny little pictures and waving around staffs and invoking some strange and dark gods can do the same thing that their technology can, because it's impossible. It's not tech! How can it be done?

So in the Old World, Magic can remain to be some mysterious, something wonderful, an just plain magical. In the Old World, it becomes something feared, something incomprehensible, something to be locked away and researched.

 

[merciary]

The main way I see to make magitech work is to force the user to "channel" energy to make it work. This would be no where near as hard as using magic by one's self but would still limit how many people could use the devices. This would mean that mundane weapons are still needed.

 

[Terrance888]

I can. You should be able to. Think up of interesting ways to make it so.

Some ideas.

1) Formulas are developed to somewhat standardize effect of a trigger spell, but obviously with large variances which each individual must practice to eliminate. These standardized spells are then practiced to trigger more impressive and useful ones, with the device triggering the actual spell.

2) Runes/Scripts constrain spells, storing them basically. A spell is prepared and cast onto and into a material, then trapped and stored onto and into runes.

3) The magical device itself has no power other than that needed to direct magical power. It draws said power form the user in a easy to use fashion (compared to actual spell casting).

4) The entire spell is stored and is used like one-use bullets. Use and toss.

5) Item draws energy from local area, gaining more power at Magic Nodes.

6) Item is not magical at all. The runes on the device are to be read by user, which defines an "empty" spell. This framework is then filled with magic and then launched.

7) Items are embued via powerful rituals, leaching massive amounts of energy into them.

8) Items are used in shortened rituals. I can see a magical grenade require a quick but tedious ritual to power up the explosive.

Magical Batteries will NOT be available. Magic for Match Lighting from Person A does not equal Magic for Fireworks for Person B. However, I can see magical resources being "distilled" and stored for use in potions and rituals, like unicorn blood and manticore poison and what have you.

EDIT: What seon said is cool too. You guys decide amongst yourselves. As long as it isn't handwavium. For the people on the ground it might be handwavium, but for the Tech Priests it shouldn't be, should it?

 

[Terrance888]

Also, I feel the struggle between traditional magic users (be they ritualists, casters, potion makers) and the new wave magic utilizers (magitech priests, engineer-mages) can make for a great story. Are the magic utilizers right in doing what they do? Are there side effects in introducing the masses to magic? What about that engineer who sudden sprouted tentacles and attacked others? Should the Traditionalists support or fight the New Wave? All very interesting questions.

 

[Seon]

When Mayans invented a way to extract energy from the stars or whatever and store it in transportable format, they bridged a gap between normal Physics and Magical Physics, nothing more. They discovered how to use stored mana/whatever in order to make a machine function. I imagine it working much the same way as Dishonored's Whale Oil.

They can only use mana to modify how normal physics work. They can't summon beasts from beyond, make a jumble of rocks move, or throw fireballs. They can amplify sounds, make protective fields, stop atomic bonding from working, or accelerate an cannonball to Mach 10.

 

[Terrance888]

So Magitech is based on "meta"physics, as in "beyond" normal physics, but still physics.

Makes "electron guns" and "particle accelerator cannons" make sense.

 

[Seon]

Something about magic batteries: they would still be unavailable in the old world. The concept that the distilled magic for Disintegration Rifle can be used to, for example, warm your house, would be as ludicrous as shoving a D battery into a shotgun and firing it at people.

I envision that Magitek, I really hate that word, would be far more deep and varied then "Phlebotnium A is used to do Everything." Magic would be analyzed and researched to its full depth. Maybe an enterprising gunsmith discovered that if you mixed Stored Starlight with the Blood of Earth in a certain proportion in a certain way, the resultin mixture would stop atomic bonding from working in a certain radius, and that he could make a bullet with two compartments out of steel and launch the bullet out of a gun powered by Stored Sunlight which would envelop the bullet in a force field which, upon impact, would crush the bullet just the right way to cause the reaction to happen.

What this means is that the Old World simply cannot carry around huge jugs of "mana" and equip the army thus. Normal and absurdly mundane rules of supply lines (order 3000 bullets before next engagement... Make sure that our behemoths have enough Stored Sunlight to run for the next week...) would apply.

 

[Tycho]

As for runes and scripts, what about a system of making it so that basic runes function alright in a vague and broad function (i.e., craft, burn, illuminate, etc.) but aren't specialized, while the more detailed scripts/series of runes (craft a fire and illuminate the room with a burning light) work in a highly specialized function that cannot be changed, but are harder to remember and write down, with each rune having to be exactly right otherwise the effect will either not work or will detonate and backfire horribly. Not only that, but those with a greater attunement with magic will produce a more powerful effect more easily, while those with weaker attunements towards magic will produce a smaller effect or even have trouble using the highly specialized scripts at all. Not too mention that the way scripts are written in terms of what is used to write them (ink, lead, paint, pencil, blood, etc.) should have different effects on what the script does (necromancy scripts written in blood or bone should be more powerful in raising the dead, while a creative script that crafts something should be written in ink or paint).

Just ideas though. I also would like to agree with Arrow that the Inheritance idea of sacrifice for an effect is needed and energy is drained, but I'm not leaning towards the life force idea and more of leaning towards Bair's idea of "magic is like electricity or light" and you can tap into it naturally, depending on how good you are at it (though channeling too much should have a possibility of killing you or immolation). I suppose scripts would work by either channeling that energy into the script initially, or by channeling it at the moment of invocation/activation.

Additionally, I suppose Stafia will use runes and scripts as their primary form of magic.

 

[christos200]

Those who use Magic are outlawed in Bhutan and most users of Magic have been killed. The Bhutanese believe that those who use Magic are creatures from hell.

 

[Crezth]

I support seon's last post.

 

[Terrance888]

I want mana nodes to provide "blood of earth" as the oil like substance. So it would be a commonly used but not universal reagent. Stored sunshine and starlight all have their own uses as well. Also, Magitech crafting should be easier at mananodes in terms of power infusion/enscription, but harder in that the magical background atmosphere/radiation shifts constantly.

 

[christos200]

Bhutan does not have any mana or magic. Magic is considered evil in Bhutan.

 

[Ailedhoo]

I am currently constructing ideas of orders for the French Empire to have regarding the strict use of magic within the empire. Templars are involved.

On the land issue: it would be nice if France was one, since what ever the case the south of France will be regarded as French core and hence... a tension hold.

Spoiler inner thoughts :

...to be honest with magic in this game I do not mind changing my government into a necrocracy or holy order instead of France for the lulz of trolling the mage nations with the later

This of course may require somewhere joining us to compensate for the lost of the access to the Meditation. Perhaps Galicia...