Simple question about god-human relations

I did offer some other perspectives, eg Jesus being the only one who should be saved at all cost - and that was achieved through generations of test-humans who filled the player's database with info to make the correct choices ^_^

But yes, this is more of a thread about speculation, not religious doctrines.
 
I can only speak for the (well, "a") Christian perspective.

Assuming a god exists, what is the point of salvation being gained by humans depending on some action, ethic, work or other part or even the whole of their life? If god is omnipotent and omniscient, it would already be aware of who will be saved and who will not.
Salvation is not dependent upon human action. Scripture is very clear on that. And since God is all-knowing, he is completely aware of who will be saved and who won't be.

More ink has been spilled on the relationship between predestination vs free will than I could ever hope to read. Ultimately, reasonable Christians agree that it's a mystery.

Other religious people try to argue that those discarded only fail because some antagonistic deity, a devil, intervened. But in the christian religion there is no duopoly of power; satan isn't as powerful, so ultimately any discarded human was such because god allowed it to be so.
The key word here is "allow". God allows us to fail, but he does not cause us to fail.
 
I can only speak for the (well, "a") Christian perspective.


Salvation is not dependent upon human action. Scripture is very clear on that. And since God is all-knowing, he is completely aware of who will be saved and who won't be.

More ink has been spilled on the relationship between predestination vs free will than I could ever hope to read. Ultimately, reasonable Christians agree that it's a mystery.


The key word here is "allow". God allows us to fail, but he does not cause us to fail.

That is a bit convenient, though. I mean I can allow you to walk down the street, when I know there is a sniper there and also know I can take the sniper out with a single word. I didn't force you to walk, nor interfered with the sniper other than letting him be placed and ready to gun you down, but if you are predestined to be fast enough you can survive ^_^

Maybe religion is compatible with darwinism after all.
 
That is a bit convenient, though. I mean I can allow you to walk down the street, when I know there is a sniper there and also know I can take the sniper out with a single word. I didn't force you to walk, nor interfered with the sniper other than letting him be placed and ready to gun you down, but if you are predestined to be fast enough you can survive ^_^

Maybe religion is compatible with darwinism after all.
I don't accept your analogy. :P

I mean, your ultimate question is the question of evil and suffering, yes? Why would an omnipotent and loving God allow evil and suffering to exist? This is an old question, and one which has been thought about for a long time. I - and no one else - is going to be able to give you a satisfactory answer in a pat forum post, because it's a really deep, personal question. If you are actually interested in diving deeply into a religious perspective on that, I highly recommend C.S. Lewis' book The Problem of Pain. It is not excessively long and is very readable, and will do a much better job answering the question than I could.
 
There is an underlying assumption that the thread did fall into, that humans 'work to be saved'. i.e., you have to do something. You cannot, because there is nothing you can do that can undo all of the sin you commit.

You know what's weird about this? We forgive each other and accept each others' forgiveness all the time. But we do this know that humans are fallible. The hiccup occurs because we cannot figure out why God made us fallible. God forgiving us, and us accepting the forgiveness feels discordant. I draw a circle on the paper, notice it's imperfect and forgive the circle for being imperfect. And it stews in guilt for failing to be a circle, despite the fact that I drew it.

An alternative, and it solves the puzzle, is that all creations are actually perfect. They just haven't realized it yet. "Forgiveness" is just that eureka moment.

It doesn't make for a very nice world, though, where people think that everyone else is divinely perfect. Makes it hard to punch Nazis.

The last alternative is that there is no paradox and that one of the foundations assumed is incorrect. "The universe DGAF" worse, too. Life's a bench and then you're forked.
 
There is an underlying assumption that the thread did fall into, that humans 'work to be saved'. i.e., you have to do something. You cannot, because there is nothing you can do that can undo all of the sin you commit.

You know what's weird about this? We forgive each other and accept each others' forgiveness all the time. But we do this know that humans are fallible. The hiccup occurs because we cannot figure out why God made us fallible. God forgiving us, and us accepting the forgiveness feels discordant. I draw a circle on the paper, notice it's imperfect and forgive the circle for being imperfect. And it stews in guilt for failing to be a circle, despite the fact that I drew it.

An alternative, and it solves the puzzle, is that all creations are actually perfect. They just haven't realized it yet. "Forgiveness" is just that eureka moment.

It doesn't make for a very nice world, though, where people think that everyone else is divinely perfect. Makes it hard to punch Nazis.

The last alternative is that there is no paradox and that one of the foundations assumed is incorrect. "The universe DGAF" worse, too. Life's a bench and then you're forked.

Well the whole point is that God did make us perfect in the beginning. That is until Lucifer then preceded to feed us mystery fruit.

Also the point of working hard under predestination is like a fortune cookie. You do it because it is the only way you'll be able to know your future, despite the fortune already being determined (like a fortune cookie, the fortune is inside the cookie pre-written already). God can't communicate with us directly and tell us about our future, because he doesn't feel like it. Hence why he communicates to us by giving us success or failure after working.
 
Sorry, when I discuss God, I don't really use the Bible. So, when I talk about a perfect, personal God creating me, there's not much to be found in the allegory of the Old Testament that really helps. It makes too many mistakes on simple facts and logic to be very useful.
 
I maintain that even discarded humans are important in the plan*, else they'd at least be allowed to kill themselves. But suicide is forbidden by the church, at in the past the clergy could even refuse burial.

*Just cause you won't get to go through the door, doesn't mean the corridor stops needing greasing, which your corpse will provide. Maybe human misery helps feed a Tezcatlipoca-like space alien to combat Cthulhu.
 
Sorry, when I discuss God, I don't really use the Bible. So, when I talk about a perfect, personal God creating me, there's not much to be found in the allegory of the Old Testament that really helps. It makes too many mistakes on simple facts and logic to be very useful.

K, but that little book is the foundation of your faith.
 
The Bible teaches the opposite actually- as humans we are spiritually dead in our sin and can do nothing to gain salvation. You should check out Ephesians 2.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
If one chooses to quote the Bible there is this:
1 Corinthians 15:

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

In the end everyone is saved including the devil. No worries, just live your life.
 
K, but that little book is the foundation of your faith.

Sure is. But it's merely some people's best efforts to understand God. I liken it to reading a foundational scientific paper. If they make mistakes, just figure out where the mistakes are and move on.

I also understand evolution, but I don't have to spin everything into "Darwin was correct".
 
Sure is. But it's merely some people's best efforts to understand God. I liken it to reading a foundational scientific paper. If they make mistakes, just figure out where the mistakes are and move on.

I also understand evolution, but I don't have to spin everything into "Darwin was correct".

Fair enough. I know Christians who are just like you. My sister comes to mind as well as a few others.
 
Also:

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Fair enough. I know Christians who are just like you. My sister comes to mind as well as a few others.

I'm only barely Christian, and better described as apostate. I don't believe in God and I don't believe that Jesus absolves our sins. The only major axiom I hold with Christianity in general is that Man is Imperfect.

edit: I also think that The Golden Rule is one of the better commandments out there, I guess. Impossible to do perfectly, but perfect moral behavior is impossible due to the nature of the universe.
 
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If one chooses to quote the Bible there is this:


In the end everyone is saved including the devil. No worries, just live your life.

You are misreading the text and confusing the resurrection of the dead with salvation.
 
Why could an all-powerful God simply choose not to know, or determine, the outcomes of all things? If God is all-powerful, then surely this power can be used to that end.
If he chose to blind himself why would he get all pissed off so frequently & genocide people? It's his choice to not predict the future. Also, if he sees people are f-ing up over & over in the same ways maybe he should have a little look @ the future & maybe tweak the source code.

An all powerful being getting angry all the time because his products are defective makes zero sense.

The key word here is "allow". God allows us to fail, but he does not cause us to fail.
That's a copout, he's all powerful so those two amount to the same thing.

It's like childrearing, if you allow your kids to play in the busy street you are commiting criminal neglect & are at least indirectly causing their death should they be hit by a car.

What kind of AH would allow his children to suffer, make horrible mistakes & then punish them forever?

If you buy 10 rats and put them in a cage w/ only enough food for 5 and they kill each other who's the evil one the owner or the rats?

You know what's weird about this? We forgive each other and accept each others' forgiveness all the time. But we do this know that humans are fallible. The hiccup occurs because we cannot figure out why God made us fallible. God forgiving us, and us accepting the forgiveness feels discordant. I draw a circle on the paper, notice it's imperfect and forgive the circle for being imperfect. And it stews in guilt for failing to be a circle, despite the fact that I drew it.
I like this analogy. :goodjob:

Forgiveness is very overrated. You have to judge in the first place to forgive. "You're bad but I forgive you" is a veiled insult. Better is "Hey, I see you're making mistakes but I understand much of the cause of that behavior is outside your direct control. I don't forgive you but I get it. I may avoid you due to this behavior but I don't think you're fundamentally flawed".
 
The big monotheistic religions (Christian, Islam, Judaism) have the same problem with God as DC with Superman. He is so powerful it is difficult to make a movie that makes sense.
 
You are misreading the text and confusing the resurrection of the dead with salvation.
I don't think so. It is a clear set of steps and the last verse is pretty clear.

28 When all things are subjected to Him [Jesus], then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

In the end God will be all in all. "All in All" is pretty definitive.
 
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