Single Player bugs and crashes v36 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of October 2015

[JosEPh_II]

Cleared the user settings via Play Now, which did not have a clubman.

Started a custom game, received clubman again. Options that BlueGenie and I both have on:
Random Personalities
No Tech Brokering
No Revolutions
No Tech Diffusion
Start as Minor Civ
Usable Mountains
Unlimited Wonders
No Zones of Control
Developing Leaders
Min City Borders
More Rivers
More Resources
Assigned Specialist XP

I'll try without Minor Civ in a moment. UPDATE: Yep, looks like it's starting as Minor Civ that adds the extra clubman. A quick test without it resulted in just the starting settler and stone thrower.

Thank you for this bit of Info! Now I know where to look to see why it's necessary for SaM Option to have an extra Mil unit at start. Truthfully some of our Options have not had changes done to them in years. Of course some need revisions for added concepts and others don't.

JosEPh

 

[Dreifels]

automated workers (with mule) build roads on impassable mountains, but my units can't use them.
Game settings: mountains are not usable.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I use "Start as Minor Civ" because I see the early tribes that have spread out as competing for the land around them without actually getting into war, and the AI with Minor Civ active doesn't really wage full scale war despite being "at war".
A player could take advantage and try to take out other civs completely I suppose, which is why a "supply line" option would be good, not being able to actually go too far so only the very closest ones could be taken out anyway.
The game also lack any way to effectively negotiate over an area not previously settled, leaving it to whomever either massed up palisades to culture claim the area (or "claimed" with later functions) or was the first to force a settler to the area.
It's always annoyed me when other nations go far from their own territory to settle right beside you, for me that's basically an act of war. With Minor Civs on at least one can fight about it without needing to have a full scale war or fight to the death.
Simply put by having troops there and trying to stop settlers from coming through, while they try to get their settler through.

Thinking about it maybe the AI should have some kind of insight into that too, and send "push back" or "push through" units along when trying to go to a "contested area", a place they go closer to others ready to fight for a resource?

Anyway, long iteration on why I use Minor Civ start, but changing the changeover to Negotiation instead of Writing probably is a good idea, it does take a little too long to get to as it is now, yes.

Cheers

This is an option that was probably never developed out all that well. I find the AI doesn't do too well with it and I've seen numerous potential issues in the code for poor decision making because the AI is 'at war' throughout so much of the early game. If you're shooting ahead of them in research, this is probably why... try a game without SaM and see if I'm right. The 'at war' status changes priorities and not usually for the betterment of long-term development.

I've never mentioned it because I know a lot of folks like the option and if I did there might become cries to remove the option but yeah, I suspect it's a little problematic for folks who expect a competitive AI.

EDIT: Thinking on the starting clubmen, obviously the reason for it is to give a bit more strength to the players when they start the game and make early fighting a little more inviting. But with SM it makes early exploration too quick imo. Furthermore, even a brute or stone thrower would give the same issue. So I say get rid of it entirely if we can figure out where it's being assigned by the option somehow. (It's probably in python.)

Why then does the "Field Worker I" promotion apply to both Grassland and Plain?

Cheers

I think you should be able to assign multiple types. I'm still not terribly happy with how those promotions were never really fully fleshed out. A project dropped in the middle of things that still has a lot of cool potential.

 

[Thunderbrd]

automated workers (with mule) build roads on impassable mountains, but my units can't use them.
Game settings: mountains are not usable.

Correct. Units that can go on peaks and work them can do so before mountaineering but that doesn't make them useable. However, it does allow you to get resources on those peaks within city radius early. Very cool that.

I'd like to eventually retool it so that units that can't move onto peaks CAN if there's a route there, so long as its within your borders or on neutral land. And now that it's been mentioned in the right thread... it will probably happen sooner than later.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Should not the worker promotions for working in Forests also include Jungle and Bamboo and Ancient Forest?
Or if not then add Jungle and Bamboo as a separate promotion and add Ancient Forest to the normal Forest at least?

The same goes for Desert worker and Dunes and Salt Flats?

And a Wetland Worker promotion including Muddy, Lush and Wetland should exist?

Cheers

Why then does the "Field Worker I" promotion apply to both Grassland and Plain?

Cheers

OK that XML has changed a lot since I last looked at it and from the default BtS.

Polar Worker for example adds types as it gets higher so I assume at Polar 3 you get a total of +60 on Taiga, +40 on Tundra and +20 on ice.

Desert Worker already does Dunes at level 2 and Salt Flats at level 3

Field Worker already does Lush at level 2.


How about for Forest Worker - Bamboo the same as Forest with Jungle and Ancient Forest being added at level 2?

A Wetlands worker promotion line would need graphics before it could be done.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

However, it does allow you to get resources on those peaks within city radius early. Very cool that.

If I recall correctly, resources on peaks don't ever count towards vicinity buildings, though. That is, say you have Copper Ore on a peak in your city radius. You get a Work Mule up there and build a route and a Stone Tools Workshop. Now you have 1 Copper Ore in your resources, but the city will still be unable to build a Copper Mine, and therefore still cannot build a Copper Smelter, rendering it useless for most purposes. However, once you have Ship Building or Road Building, having that 1 Copper Ore will allow you to build a National Copper Smelter. This has been the case pretty much forever, though I'm not sure what if any work has been done to investigate it.

Honestly, the starting clubman is entirely useless as a combat unit anyway. Mine usually just scouts for maybe a dozen turns before being munched by the first large predator it runs into. I mean, in theory, I suppose it could help protect against a very early rush by a very close AI's starting units or something, but the Tribal Guardian should be able to hold against them on its own anyway.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

AS mentioned elsewhere but not reported as a bug the Promotions page of the pedia is not showing the details of the promotions. This will involve going through each one to find the one(s) that are breaking them all.

 

[JosEPh_II]

AS mentioned elsewhere but not reported as a bug the Promotions page of the pedia is not showing the details of the promotions. This will involve going through each one to find the one(s) that are breaking them all.

And that is all python right? Yeouch! Feel for you DH. Too bad Potentate "the potential New Modder" bailed so quickly.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And that is all python right? Yeouch! Feel for you DH. Too bad Potentate "the potential New Modder" bailed so quickly.

JosEPh

It is probably not the python that has the error but that one or more of the promotions is not defined quite right. I say that because the python code is basically the standard SevoPedia code.

 

[tmv]

Honestly, the starting clubman is entirely useless as a combat unit anyway. Mine usually just scouts for maybe a dozen turns before being munched by the first large predator it runs into. I mean, in theory, I suppose it could help protect against a very early rush by a very close AI's starting units or something, but the Tribal Guardian should be able to hold against them on its own anyway.

In a good defense position, the clubman can be a very good protector. In the last game where I managed to go beyond Modern, I would have lost the game in the second round to a bear without the clubman. And rarely, the clubman manages to survive.

Regarding immersion, it is really interesting to have a unit around in Modern or TH that has been there from the beginning. I mean, some of the oldest existing units in our world have been around for 300 or so years (some British units, at least), but a unit in our day that has already fought mammoths or Neanderthals would certainly be impressive.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If I recall correctly, resources on peaks don't ever count towards vicinity buildings, though. That is, say you have Copper Ore on a peak in your city radius. You get a Work Mule up there and build a route and a Stone Tools Workshop. Now you have 1 Copper Ore in your resources, but the city will still be unable to build a Copper Mine, and therefore still cannot build a Copper Smelter, rendering it useless for most purposes.

A recent experience in the MP game defies this statement. I had copper on a peak and was indeed able to get a Stone Tools on it and then build a Copper Mine and so forth in the city.

 

[Dreifels]

Correct. Units that can go on peaks and work them can do so before mountaineering but that doesn't make them useable. However, it does allow you to get resources on those peaks within city radius early.

is causing another problem:
When I click the 'build road to' for the worker, it makes one street across the mountain instead a road around it. As units can't use it (and the mountain is outside the city border) I have to command another road building around the mountain manually. On a huge map lot of work to check all routes if they are correct or not useable, as that happens again with any street upgrade, and then make alternative roads manually.

Edit
now I have paved roads, and the workers don't bild it on mountain.

Edit 2
very confusing: now, some turns later, they again can run over mountains und build a street, also a paved street..
While before, when I click a worker and goto mountian I got a red (not possible) image on destination, now I get a possible building way for the same.
The only difference to before: I finished "Heraldic".

Edit3
ok, worker with dog can't pass, worker with mule can pass and build

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

A recent experience in the MP game defies this statement. I had copper on a peak and was indeed able to get a Stone Tools on it and then build a Copper Mine and so forth in the city.

Huh. Maybe the problem only applies to Mountain Mines, rather than Stone Tools? In any case, I'm certainly not getting vicinity buildings available from a variety of mountain resources with Mountain Mines on them in my current game. Also possible only some resources work properly, I suppose.

 

[Thunderbrd]

OK that XML has changed a lot since I last looked at it and from the default BtS.

Polar Worker for example adds types as it gets higher so I assume at Polar 3 you get a total of +60 on Taiga, +40 on Tundra and +20 on ice.

Desert Worker already does Dunes at level 2 and Salt Flats at level 3

Field Worker already does Lush at level 2.


How about for Forest Worker - Bamboo the same as Forest with Jungle and Ancient Forest being added at level 2?

A Wetlands worker promotion line would need graphics before it could be done.

All good ideas.

Huh. Maybe the problem only applies to Mountain Mines, rather than Stone Tools? In any case, I'm certainly not getting vicinity buildings available from a variety of mountain resources with Mountain Mines on them in my current game. Also possible only some resources work properly, I suppose.

Possible I suppose. I'm not sure. I haven't had much playtesting with it nor time to evaluate things on that front. But its something I've been meaning to look at more closely to ensure its working like I'd most like it to.

 

[JosEPh_II]

is causing another problem:
When I click the 'build road to' for the worker, it makes one street across the mountain instead a road around it. As units can't use it (and the mountain is outside the city border) I have to command another road building around the mountain manually. On a huge map lot of work to check all routes if they are correct or not useable, as that happens again with any street upgrade, and then make alternative roads manually.

Edit
now I have paved roads, and the workers don't bild it on mountain.

Edit 2
very confusing: now, some turns later, they again can run over mountains und build a street, also a paved street..
While before, when I click a worker and goto mountian I got a red (not possible) image on destination, now I get a possible building way for the same.
The only difference to before: I finished "Heraldic".

Edit3
ok, worker with dog can't pass, worker with mule can pass and build

So you still have not learned that the basic worker is limited in what it can do and the more you "update" your workers ( to dog, camel, elephant, pack, etc.) the more they can do.

Been this way for sometime Dreifels.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

@T-brd,
The EoT wait after turn 200 on any GS is getting Bad. at turn 200 it's already over 1min 15 sec. But by turn 260 it's over 3+ mins, almost triple the EoT wait in 60 turns! This is getting bad.

I reduced the Num City Pipeline Multithread value from 4 down to 2 (Afforess A_New_DawnGlobalDefines) and it jumped to over 5+ min for EoT wait. I put it back to 4 asap! I've not see it this bad since last year's Ren Era game when the seige rams were exploding everywhere.

Save game attached so you can load it up and see what I mean.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

@T-brd,
The EoT wait after turn 200 on any GS is getting Bad. at turn 200 it's already over 1min 15 sec. But by turn 260 it's over 3+ mins, almost triple the EoT wait in 60 turns! This is getting bad.

I reduced the Num City Pipeline Multithread value from 4 down to 2 (Afforess A_New_DawnGlobalDefines) and it jumped to over 5+ min for EoT wait. I put it back to 4 asap! I've not see it this bad since last year's Ren Era game when the seige rams were exploding everywhere.

Save game attached so you can load it up and see what I mean.

JosEPh

I'm pretty sure I know what's happening. This is about the stage of the game where you start getting stacks conflicting with stacks and some caching was found to not work due to an as of yet undiagnosed underlying bug. Thus for now the caching is disabled and when you get to having stacks going to war you will see a huge slowdown as a result. The bug is not trivial.

 

[JosEPh_II]

One little observation about this. Around turns 200-230, when the EoT hits about the 1min 15+ mark I noticed the running man does something strange about 15 secs before the next turn. The running man will turn into the regular BtS pointer for a brief moment and return back to the running man till the EoT process finishes.

It's like some process says Okay we're done, but then another process jumps in and says, "whoa not so fast I got some final stuff to do".

When EoTs are faster this doesn't happen. Just a strange little observation.

JosEPh

 

[Uriel246]

First of all, English is not my first language, I defend myself more bad than good, with the help of google translate

I can't load my savegame from yesterday. Any attempt ends with a CTD after 10-15 minutes of loading.

Last night I stopped playing and Save My game without any problem. Although the last days the game crash to the desktop from time to time

A summary of the game options would be:
- C2C_PerfectWorld2df
- Gigantic Map
- Eternity Speed
- Turn 2100, approximately.
- About 15 AI players, maybe more, beacuse the barbarians transform into civs.

PC specs:
- CPU: i5 2500k (no OC)
- AMD 7970
- 8GB RAM
- Windows 10 x64

I post here but the game version is V36 SVN 9230 from this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=559944

The minidump file say "The thread tried to read from or write to a virtual address for which it does not have the appropriate access".

Perhaps the map is too large and the game has reached the limit of the mod?

Apart from that I have seen in the previous thread there's a new version (9265).

Maybe the only option is to start with a less ambitious size and the new version?... But the game has taken me some time and I do not like to lose it.

If there is a trick you can do in Windows 10 (I upgraded recently) that can solve this problem, it is very welcome.

I upload the savegame to dropbox:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5h3kxeh8llmesz/Bas_Imm_Gig_C2C_Ete_Pre_4760-BC_Tem_Low_Aug-02-2016_01-18-28.CivBeyondSwordSave?dl=0

 

[Dreifels]

So you still have not learned that the basic worker is limited in what it can do and the more you "update" your workers ( to dog, camel, elephant, pack, etc.) the more they can do.

my complain was, that this is althought the game setting is mountains are not useable, and when I later noticed suddenly, that my (dog) workers don't cross the mountains, I did not remember that difference between workers but saw that related the general prohibition to do any with mountains.

In vikipedia there is no word to that speciallity.