Single Player bugs and crashes v37 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of December 2016

[Thunderbrd]

I'm working on CTDs now, along with the refining of my latest project whch involved numerous side projects in the code. I've been debugging in general and these saves have been very helpful to that cause. I may have a final more stable version coming up here. The minis aren't helping at the moment because the code is in flux but I'm hoping I'm catching what they were running into as well.

 

[Raledon]

Explain this in more clear steps please. You are purposefully collecting up units that don't have any movement points left for that turn and then finding that clicking to load that selection group only loads the first unit, even though there is more room for units to be loaded among the ships in port in the city they are in?

You probably going tp need to give me the save and instructions on how to replicate the problem specifically.

I've uploaded the game, below pictures with the steps and info

Spoiler :

Few workers, in a tile with a unit with cargo

we ctrl+shift+click each of them, to select

Which looks as if we used shift+click normally.

when we load them into the cargo

only one unit boarded into the cargo, instead of all of them.

repeat the same process with shift+click instead:

All of the units loaded together

Without looking at the building, does it create an 'effect' autobuilding in all cities that bring with them the benefits mentioned? Usually that's the way this sort of thing works.

I guess it's as you say, as the benefits do not mention any global effect.

Is that what is happening? That should not be taking place. The additional two should also have the additional quality promo.

But if you're reading his complaint, I'm pretty sure he was talking about the merger and the ban I put on merging differing quality units. Splitting, they should all get the same quality. If you are seeing this is not the case then I need a save and instructions to replicate. That would be a bug.

I guess it's two-fold bug I reported, which should have been separated. One is the merging part, and the other is separation. The first issue is not really an issue, as you explained. The other is, though. I've added a second save that shows it. Instructions to reproduce:

Spoiler :

unit with a quality up

3 units, one with promotions like the above picture, the rest are missing some others. The missing ones are granted by the noble, but the other units did not get the levels to rank back up.

note: in the event log, there is a green text that claims that while the knights lost their promotion (noble, most likely), they may select a new one. The unit lacks the option.

Hope this helps!

 

[Thunderbrd]

What behavior are you expecting from CTRL-SHIFT-CLICK to select? It's probably confusing the grouping system and it confuses ME as to why you're doing it exactly.

As for the splitting, one thing I can't tell from your graphics and explanation, are the 3 resulting units failing to keep the quality up promotion boosts or are all three keeping those? Losing free promos on the second two is as designed to block a discovered player exploit. That Noble promo would be considered a 'free' promotion, pretty much anything not earned with leveling up is considered 'free'.

 

[Raledon]

Civ4 has an issue that selecting/deselecting/giving a command (such as building a horse herd) may take some time, based on the number of troops in the tile.
If there is a number of troops, and you want to load the civilians into the cargo (an idea- replacing my use of the bandits with a specialized logistics unit?), the time can be quite annoying as there is no clear option to select all of them. This leaves the slow shift+click option (default).
Trying to use ctrl+shift+click "selects" the unit without the delay, making it a preferable option, as it's much faster. Giving the unit the yellow border makes it seem that it's a viable alternative to shift+click, essentially the same effect but without the delay. The expected effect (based on current behavior) would be selection similar to shift+click, as it colors the same way.
My main goal, at least in this case, was to "select all units of type, regardless of available movement". The similar options (ctrl+click, alt+click) only work on units with remaining movement.


In short, when splitting the units, two of the units keep the basic promotions (as intended), lose the noble and related promotions (intended), and lose the quality up promotion (bug). The third keeps everything (intended)
When splitting, I expect to be able to recombine the units back. This is not an option as two units lose their quality up, and do not new gain levels to allow them to pick it again.

 

[Thunderbrd]

My main goal, at least in this case, was to "select all units of type, regardless of available movement". The similar options (ctrl+click, alt+click) only work on units with remaining movement.

Ok. Starting to make a bit more sense. I don't use this key combo myself, just the group all or group all of same type buttons so you've actually told me something I didn't know about the game. Learn something new everyday they say.

So in a city it works to load all like that but I'm thinking that it's because you're grouped with units that don't have movement points left and trying to load them all that it's only loading one then stopping. Honestly this is in some of the most complex terrain in the code and I really do NOT wish to tamper with it. It is much too easy to create larger problems trying to solve this one, which if this is as bad as it gets there is quite acceptable tolerable behavior. Certain behaviors are getting confused with other expectations, such as all the units should either have or not have movement. It collides with commands to load all like what you get when you jump your group off a coastal tile onto ships and changes to one thing pull at the other in unexpected ways. Best for time to bite the bullet and only select all those that can move, load, then get the rest of them loaded.

Your use of the Bandit Riders is absolutely an intended easter egg strategy - to use those units as captive collectors. Well discovered.

In short, when splitting the units, two of the units keep the basic promotions (as intended), lose the noble and related promotions (intended), and lose the quality up promotion (bug). The third keeps everything (intended)
When splitting, I expect to be able to recombine the units back. This is not an option as two units lose their quality up, and do not new gain levels to allow them to pick it again.

Ew... yeah I'll have to fix that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not sure if it is a bug - or intended.

Played on 9546 then checked Civilopedia on 9675. Same info.

Law Enforcement units.

Guard cost 5, Investigate 2.5, crime -10, pursuit 10, sentry 1.

Then:

City Guard cost 5, Investigate 3.0, crime -12, pursuit 15, NO sentry 1. ***

then:

Sheriff cost 6, Investigate 4.0, crime -15, pursuit 20, sentry 1.

After that all increase by the same.ratios.

My question is - should City Guard cost 6, and also have Sentry 1. ?

If so the costs of the Sheriff and the following units (i.e. Police Squad etc.) need to have there costs increased by one.

Side note.

***
There is a problem, between Guard and City Guard. A building stops you building Guards and does not let you build City Guards.

So no law enforcement units for a long time.

I've taken care of both of these issues with my next commit. Thanks for the report and I'm sorry it took me so long to address it.

Joe brought up an aspect of this too on an earlier unit in the LE chain. Part of the problem here was that when you replace a building that opens up access to a unit upgrade the previous building was the prerequisite of but you can't yet train the more advanced unit for other reasons, it's pretty unfair to be cut off from still being able to train that lesser unit. This is resolved by taking those units and giving them a set of OR building prereqs that include the next building in the chain so that when their building is replaced, it doesn't cut you off from access to the lesser unit.

The City Guard needs Ammunition, and the Guard goes obsolete before you can research the proper tech to get it. That's why there's a gap.

This was indeed another issue and historically made sense. The problem also applied to about 3 other units in the same era. Ammunition apparently does not mean steel balls that were commonly made by the gunowner themselves but refers to manufactured specialty ammo with casings which opens up a few grid x layers later at explosives.

GREAT spot! Thank you for that!

Next commit solves all of these issues and another one mentioned elsewhere regarding a tech prereq on the guardhouse.

The building/unit prereqs have also been fully reviewed for LE units now. We'll have to soon also get around to extending these building and unit lines past where they are into the vast future Pepper has designed.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This was indeed another issue and historically made sense. The problem also applied to about 3 other units in the same era. Ammunition apparently does not mean steel balls that were commonly made by the gunowner themselves but refers to manufactured specialty ammo with casings which opens up a few grid x layers later at explosives.

You mean lead balls not steel balls. Shot was made with lead, you could make lots of it in "Shot Towers" by pouring lead through small holes and letting it drop a long way naturally forming shot. Modern buckshot used in shot guns is indeed steel but you can't make steel balls at home easily.

 

[Snofru1]

Great that the Guard issue has been adressed finally !

I already had reported it at March 20th here:

The Town Patrol becomes obsolete way too early (Flintlock). This means that after the discovery of Flintlock neither Guards nor City Guards can be built which both need the Town Patrol and in the end a long time passes where no policing units at all can be built (until the discovery of Deputization with the Sheriff unit). Only in cities where you have built the Town Patrol before the discovery of Flintlock you can still construct policing units.

Added: I have to correct myself, the problem is that the Guard House replaces the Town Patrol, but the Guard House doesn´t allow any law enforcing units. Only cities that haven´t built the Guard House can still build Guards.

 

[Raledon]

While I'm not entirely sure if this is exactly what happened (it does seem so), it appears that upgrading a unit (and changing its type) may remove the quality up promotion.
I upgraded ballistras to Fire Arrow. As part of the upgrade, they lost their "better shooting" promotion (forgot name), and got the option to take Pyrotechnics. Due to the temporary loss, it appears the qualifications for quality up was lost- but re-leveling in pyrotechnics didn't give the option to get quality up.

 

[sunrisereader]

I noticed something strange while trading with the AI in the diplomacy screen. I would sometimes add a tech to each side of a trade deal and ask the AI what will make this deal work and they add add a second tech on my side. But if i remove one of the 2 techs on my side and add it again and ask again what will make this trade work the AI will add items to there side of the trade deal.

 

[sunrisereader]

Whit the advanced diplomacy game option on you can trade workers, ships, siege units, law enforcement units and healers in diplomacy deals if the AI likes you enough but it does not take in account how many LE units it needs. after one of these deals i noticed that the 3 AI cities i could see no longer had any law enforcement units in them. Also when trading units they end up in the capital and most of the law enforcement units had the status active that gives +movement and reduces strength.

 

[MlnwY]

If we're talking about Ammunition and [too] early obsoletion, there's also an issue with the Ammunition Complex replacing the Ammunition Factory. When the Factory obsoletes, you can't build all the siege units from Early Artillery and on anymore - they require it specifically. I think you should add a "OR Ammunition Complex" to their requirements, because now if you build the Complex in one of your cities, from that point on you can only train Medieval era units (the Ammunition Complex becomes available at late Modern or early Information era). At least, until you get Levitation Generators much much later in the tech tree.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You mean lead balls not steel balls. Shot was made with lead, you could make lots of it in "Shot Towers" by pouring lead through small holes and letting it drop a long way naturally forming shot. Modern buckshot used in shot guns is indeed steel but you can't make steel balls at home easily.

I stand corrected about the type of metal used to make early ammo. You are right... I just pulled the term steel from my head for the word 'metal'. I've seen how easy they made them with hand tools but it would've been lead due to the lower melting point.

Great that the Guard issue has been adressed finally !

I already had reported it at March 20th here:

Yeah it's been around for a long while but it took clearing up the task list a bit to get it done.

While I'm not entirely sure if this is exactly what happened (it does seem so), it appears that upgrading a unit (and changing its type) may remove the quality up promotion.
I upgraded ballistras to Fire Arrow. As part of the upgrade, they lost their "better shooting" promotion (forgot name), and got the option to take Pyrotechnics. Due to the temporary loss, it appears the qualifications for quality up was lost- but re-leveling in pyrotechnics didn't give the option to get quality up.

An upgrade of a unit with a quality up promotion MAY change the type of quality up promotion it gets after the upgrade. If the base unit quality increases or decreases in the upgrade, a different qualityup promo may take its place but the increase over the base will end up the same. If this doesn't happen, it's a bug and needs looked at. The one time it wouldn't be a bug is if the quality of the base unit increases to the point that it drives the unit past maximum quality level. There shouldn't be much chance of this happening though.

Quality up promos do not have prerequisites of other promotions.

If you think something incorrect happened, you'll need to catch the save that can replicate the effect.

I noticed something strange while trading with the AI in the diplomacy screen. I would sometimes add a tech to each side of a trade deal and ask the AI what will make this deal work and they add add a second tech on my side. But if i remove one of the 2 techs on my side and add it again and ask again what will make this trade work the AI will add items to there side of the trade deal.

Yeah I've noticed some odd stuff there too. I don't work on the trade dynamics though. Haven't yet anyhow and am very reluctant to. I do have it on my list to look at the value on workers and other units due to another bug report. I'll put this on my list but it's very low priority. In the meantime, if you know you can exploit the AI on trade, either choose not to or take advantage of it... your call.

With the advanced diplomacy game option on you can trade workers, ships, siege units, law enforcement units and healers in diplomacy deals if the AI likes you enough but it does not take in account how many LE units it needs. after one of these deals i noticed that the 3 AI cities i could see no longer had any law enforcement units in them. Also when trading units they end up in the capital and most of the law enforcement units had the status active that gives +movement and reduces strength.

Statuses can change quickly. Hard to say why they wanted them to move so fast so bad. It's been suggested before to ban LE and Healer and really any property control units from trading because they can end up screwing up their own strategic balance this way. I'll have to look into how to do that. Again, a trade issue and thus something I don't like working with.

If we're talking about Ammunition and [too] early obsoletion, there's also an issue with the Ammunition Complex replacing the Ammunition Factory. When the Factory obsoletes, you can't build all the siege units from Early Artillery and on anymore - they require it specifically. I think you should add a "OR Ammunition Complex" to their requirements, because now if you build the Complex in one of your cities, from that point on you can only train Medieval era units (the Ammunition Complex becomes available at late Modern or early Information era). At least, until you get Levitation Generators much much later in the tech tree.

I have a feeling there's a lot of stuff like this. I have a project that would clear it up coming up soon, very soon. Trying to spot fix all of them in the meantime would serve to delay the larger repair project. I'll put this one on my fix list though.

 

[CIVILNATER]

Hey.

Is it worth me updating to the latest SVN and giving my turn another go?

I'm on 9731 currently.

Thanks

 

[Raledon]

An upgrade of a unit with a quality up promotion MAY change the type of quality up promotion it gets after the upgrade. If the base unit quality increases or decreases in the upgrade, a different qualityup promo may take its place but the increase over the base will end up the same. If this doesn't happen, it's a bug and needs looked at. The one time it wouldn't be a bug is if the quality of the base unit increases to the point that it drives the unit past maximum quality level. There shouldn't be much chance of this happening though.

Quality up promos do not have prerequisites of other promotions.

If you think something incorrect happened, you'll need to catch the save that can replicate the effect.

My 13.5 power Heavy Ballista, has level 3 Bolt Punch and Quality Up (Astonishing Accumen (note- my chrome's auto-correct claims this might be a typo and should be spelled Acumen, I have no idea which is the correct way to write it)).
After upgrading it, we lose both the bolt punch and quality up, resulting in a 11 power Fire Arrow. The event log informs about the lost Bolt Punch promotions, and a turn later gives 3 promotions for them.
The quality up promotion do not return or given back, though.
Below is the before and after promotion, and a save-game with the units ready to be upgraded.

Spoiler :

13.5 power Heavy Ballista.

After upgrading the Ballista, we lose the promotions, staying with a level 9 Fire Arrow with a power of 11

 

[Raledon]

Two issues with cultural borders I have noticed:
While more of a balance issue than a bug (I think), new/conquered cities can't seem to be able to compete in culture with older ones. Pretty much all of my new cities has the minimum 9 tiles due to this.
The second issue that sometimes when you conquer the enemy cities, some tiles will not be free. I have attached a screenshot and savegame of an area that is still under the NPC control, even though I conquered the related cities long ago. Such tiles tend to be freed only when a complete kill is achieved.

Spoiler :

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The second issue that sometimes when you conquer the enemy cities, some tiles will not be free. I have attached a screenshot and savegame of an area that is still under the NPC control, even though I conquered the related cities long ago. Such tiles tend to be freed only when a complete kill is achieved.

I have had a thought on this as I have reported a similar problem with fortifications being destroyed but the culture on the plot remaining. This leads to the case where it is good to build a smallest fortification then destroy it a few turns later so that the plot can't be taken from you.

A simple (and hence probably wrong solution) would be

If the culture value/level on the plot of the majority owner of the plot is not increasing
then immediately reduce this cultural level by half​

Any plot connected to a city or fortification generating culture will still have culture flowing into the plot but those cut off wont and so should flip or revert to not owned sooner.

The problem with this is knowing when it is not increasing. I have no idea how the "culture flow" works in BtS as it is not something exposed to Python. There are no onPlotChangeOwner or onPlotChangeCulture events.

 

[Thunderbrd]

While more of a balance issue than a bug (I think), new/conquered cities can't seem to be able to compete in culture with older ones. Pretty much all of my new cities has the minimum 9 tiles due to this.

This is what entertainers and LE units are for. The entertainers to blast the culture up some and the LE units to ensure that you don't lose the city (though anyone playing with minimum city culture won't have to worry about that because on that option city revolt due to culture is impossible anyhow.)

The second issue that sometimes when you conquer the enemy cities, some tiles will not be free. I have attached a screenshot and savegame of an area that is still under the NPC control, even though I conquered the related cities long ago. Such tiles tend to be freed only when a complete kill is achieved.

When you get your city to grow in culture under your nation enough, you'll start to push on those tiles with your own culture. Until then, you're still building up your new city as if you just planted it and have to get the cultural reach to extend enough to start affecting those tiles. The problem, and DH and I have noted this before but it's good to bring it up again now that I have a bug tracking system, is that the old culture doesn't decay. It really does need to, even to potentially vanish and leave the plot without an owner at all potentially.

I have had a thought on this as I have reported a similar problem with fortifications being destroyed but the culture on the plot remaining. This leads to the case where it is good to build a smallest fortification then destroy it a few turns later so that the plot can't be taken from you.

A simple (and hence probably wrong solution) would be

If the culture value/level on the plot of the majority owner of the plot is not increasing
then immediately reduce this cultural level by half
Any plot connected to a city or fortification generating culture will still have culture flowing into the plot but those cut off wont and so should flip or revert to not owned sooner.

The problem with this is knowing when it is not increasing. I have no idea how the "culture flow" works in BtS as it is not something exposed to Python. There are no onPlotChangeOwner or onPlotChangeCulture events.

I'll have to create a culture decay system. You have a pretty good idea as to how to go about it I think. When there's no further source of culture growth affecting a plot at all then the culture that's there should start draining off. As a halflife is an interesting way to go about it imo. I'll add it to my task list. I'll take a look at giving you a culture change event control as well when I get into that.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'll have to create a culture decay system. You have a pretty good idea as to how to go about it I think. When there's no further source of culture growth affecting a plot at all then the culture that's there should start draining off. As a halflife is an interesting way to go about it imo. I'll add it to my task list. I'll take a look at giving you a culture change event control as well when I get into that.

Not sure a full on culture decay is needed. By only considering the leading culture and changing that by a large amount when necessary you get all the correct outcomes without complex and maybe time consuming calculations. For instance as soon as the culture goes below that of someone else the plot flips. If the original owner then captures back the neighbouring city or fort then there is already some of their culture there to speed up the flip.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not sure a full on culture decay is needed. By only considering the leading culture and changing that by a large amount when necessary you get all the correct outcomes without complex and maybe time consuming calculations. For instance as soon as the culture goes below that of someone else the plot flips. If the original owner then captures back the neighbouring city or fort then there is already some of their culture there to speed up the flip.

I'll have to take a look and see but it shouldn't require much complexity. If your people aren't inhabiting or trying to inhabit that territory, memory of your 'ownership' should gradually vanish over time. Pretty simple really.