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Single Player bugs and crashes v38 plus (SVN) - After the 20th of February 2018

Discussion in 'Bugs and Crashes' started by Dancing Hoskuld, Feb 24, 2018.

  1. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Yes you did and in the process basically gutted the option. You should've asked me and considered the consequences it would have on those that Like to use the Option. You need to revert these changes when the Option is used. You screwed it up now you fix it.

    Besides we already have an Option (Minimum City Tiles) that guarantees the 8 tiles will be there for Those that do not want to use the 1 City. Add your changes to the settlers and above there if you want.

    AFAIK it will. But T-brd and DH have stated they want to use it's function if and when Nomadic Start every comes about.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  2. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Ok, I'll remove the free culture that accompany higher starting population.

    Why I added it:
    Because cities that start with more than 1 population starve down the turn after it was founded, and many expressed that this was uncool.​
     
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  3. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    It's part of the Option and you need to be aware that you have to prepare for the next new city founding.

    If players can not handle the preparation needed then they do not have to use the Option. It Is that simple.

    You can add your changes to base game or the Other Starting Tile Option(s).

    Edit: fixed Typo and included omitted word
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  4. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    I completely agree with you.

    The important change from that update was to give cities that start with more than 1 population some free stored food on top of the ekstra population points.
    The culture thing I did on a whim, mostly because making newer settlers better than old ones has long been a talking point, and in retrospect I don't even like it myself as it doesn't make sense for a fresh city to have any culture in any case.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I don't believe there is a bug in this, just misunderstanding perhaps of how the system works with competing cultures.
    Very. It would require a mysterious new innovation in how to work with the build lists in a manner in which I still have not been able to make a theory on how to do. One potential option I suppose would be to make different units that have larger group sizes to start with but that's not really a viable idea from a data volume perspective. Selections on the build lists (for units anyhow) are tied directly to the underlying unit definitions, aka, if there is a unit definition and the unit qualifies then it gets an entry on the build selection list in the city. There's really no way to add new selections to that list that I'm aware of that are outside of that direct indexing of unit types. A master programmer would probably be necessary and that's not me. Much as I can invent a lot there are limits and this is way outside those limits.
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I feel that culture represents the expanse within which people will settle from the city centers and still consider themselves to be a part of the city, so yes, it does make sense that when a larger group settles somewhere, not all of them huddle into the same space.
     
  7. Usul13

    Usul13 Chieftain

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    I believe there is or at least there was last time I tried. The occupied city didn't get it's tiles back by RCS rules (getting tiles on plains or alongside rivers first, forest tiles, hills later etc.) but in the form of crosses. I'm not sure if it's still the case. I'll do a test game in this week about it and I'll get back to you.
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Define, in this case, what you mean by an 'occupied' city. A captured city will grow out its culture according to the same rules as it is under BUT you can see variations from normal because you have earned cultural influence during the battles to take the city as well and this can lead to some interesting results - you're starting with some culture to begin with on various tiles around the city and your opponent's influence is gradually fading. Also, if you play on the option that enforces the first tile rung around the city be the city owner's, that'll certainly make it seem like RCS isn't operating normally.
     
  9. Usul13

    Usul13 Chieftain

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    I talk about captured cities. I did the bug report about this almost two years ago. There are screenshots in this post:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-of-december-2016.607975/page-4#post-14623127

    This is the end of that conversation:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-of-december-2016.607975/page-5#post-14626205

    So the best guess was that a city runs RCS only the first time it reaches a culture level. If it reaches a level that it reached previously with it's original owner RCS is not working and you get nice regular crosses.

    But as I said I don't know if it's still the case or if you were able to fix it or if you had any time to deal with it at all or it was a low priority problem.
     
  10. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    On review I think I understand what's happening so let's see if I can explain it.

    When a city grows it spreads its culture to where it is qualified to spread it by the culture rank it has. Thus a tile 2 spaces out isn't getting any culture from the city no matter how much culture the city is producing until the city qualifies by rank to place its culture there. IF a plot is within the city's influence range AND it has culture from that city's owner in that plot then it will be claimed. On RCS, the influence range isn't changed at various culture ranks but the plots you can qualify to seed culture into is based on whether you've qualified by RCS rules to do so or not. Thus, even the smallest bit of Influence from battle, reaching out quite a ways, will put a little of your culture into that plot and at the normal influence range from the city, your culture being there in some small amount is enough to claim the tile. But it's not enough for the city to be putting culture into that tile until RCS says it's qualified to.

    Does this make sense as to how this answers to what you experienced? It's not a volume thing so much as it is there's 2 rulesets controlling culture spread and plot claiming and RCS only addresses one of those.
     
  11. Usul13

    Usul13 Chieftain

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    I think I get what you saying but I'm not entirely sure. Let's see.

    Without battle the tile claiming works like this: With or without RCS a city on it's first culture level only can claim tiles from the first ring, on it's second culture level from the first and second rings etc. Without RCS a city will put equal amount of culture into every tile of the allowed rings which results in claiming all the tiles in the allowed rings. With the RCS option on, the RCS system interferes and only allows the city to put culture only into some tiles of the allowed rings, regulated by RCS rules thus claiming only those tiles.

    With battle the next thing happens: When the city gains the next culture level it still puts equal amount of culture into the allowed rings without RCS or only into some of the tiles with RCS but previously the battle victories put some culture into every tile next to the city so it still claims the whole ring although RCS says it should not do that.

    I thought gaining influence from battle only puts culture into the tile which on the battle happened. If it's not the case it's my bad, sorry.

    On the other hand from a player's point of view the phenomenon is still problematic and it's only semantics if we call it a bug or an unfortunate design. I use the RCS option to see irregular borders and I don't want nice regular crosses or circles around my cities.

    So the solution would be to align the two systems. For example if the RCS option is on the culture gained from battle should spread by RCS rules the same way the culture spreads from the cities. Also if I gain so much extra culture from the battles that it still fills a whole ring or almost a whole ring around the city and spread into the next ring the city should get enough culture from the battle victories that it starts on a higher culture level allowing it to claim tiles from multiple rings thus creating irregular borders.

    Anyway if you can do something about this I will be happy to use the RCS option if not then I will avoid it but I won't bother you with it anymore.
     
  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    The culture is already there in those rings due to the small amount from the battle. So even though RCS is saying only some of those plots may get culture from the city right now, the fact that they already have a little qualifies them, since they are still technically within the range of city claiming, to be labeled as yours because all the plot needs is to either:
    a) have been previously claimed by you and still have any of your culture there and no greater competing culture of another's
    OR
    b) have any amount of your culture in the tile AND be within claim range.

    And yes, it is because the battle spread that culture a lot farther than just the tile it was on and thus added a little of your culture to those tiles during the battle that when it came to the point where your cultural claim range spread out there was culture there, unlike on RCS where a virgin uncultured tile would still not be claimed, even if within claim range, because you don't yet have any of your cultural influence in that tile.
    I'm not sure why this is problematic, tbh. There's a logical cause for this influence and it is a bonus for militarily dominating the region. Think of it like this - there are still humans living in that area because the previous landowners had enough cultural spread to have them move out that far and still consider themselves a part of the city community. When you conquered the city they didn't think of themselves as part of your nation for a while, more like refugees continuing to live where they had personally settled. But as your city stabilized and grew to accept your rule, they came back around to considering themselves a part of the city again.

    However, in the case of a normal settlement growing up in a completely wild environment and taming the land as it goes, there just aren't any people that have moved out to that region until it is culturally claimed. NO human settlements at all on those unclaimed plots. Not yet.

    Hard to understand why you would discard the whole option and use the normal core behavior just because a rare PART of the game would appear to look as if it is working more like that core behavior on the basis of not liking the original core behavior. ??? huh ???

    Much easier said than done since they figure themselves out in very different ways and the way RCS works is completely organic whereas the claim range is absolutely static to game rule and has nothing to do with any plot evaluations, purely the distance from the city and the culture level of the city are all that it looks at. I can think of a way but I'm not sure I could pull it off depending on how the exact syntax is programmed right now - this is the kind of thing that could create an unusually long turn processing time delay for a very small return in game value.
     
  13. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    You can in BUG options turn off the culture from battle mechanic...
     
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  14. Niveras

    Niveras Chieftain

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    I wouldn't call it a bug necessarily, but are there some mapscripts that don't yet support all of C2C's new tiles and features? Things like barren, dunes (vs. desert), scrubs?

    I normally use fractal or pangaea, but with the recent change about map sizes I had tried SmartMap. I realize now I didn't read the SVN correctly and SmartMap was instead one of the maps that wasn't adjusted for size, but when trying it I noticed that only vanilla tiles (grassland, plains, desert) were generating. I used the default settings (i.e. not SmartMap Crazy). Is this intended or did I screw up a setting somehow?
     
  15. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    All map scripts except for the "World" map script lack full support for all the terrain types.
     
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  16. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Chieftain

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    Maybe this should be mentioned somewhere with the map generators.
     
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  17. Niveras

    Niveras Chieftain

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    I wasn't aware of that. As I mentioned, I normally use pangaea or fractal, which do spawn all the tiles that I thought they could - for example, taiga/tundra/permafrost/ice (vs. I think just tundra and ice for vanilla?), or lush/marsh, swamps, etc.

    What is missing from the others? Map bonuses? I noticed in the SmartMap attempt there was a mammoth graveyard, but I wasn't sure if that was just very new or maybe a result of its bonus placement and shouldn't actually be there (or instead exposed only under some condition).
     
  18. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Trenches, deep sea, Jagged and badlands are missing from all the others.
    2-3 scripts are missing 1 or 2 of the cold terrains, permafrost or ice.
     
  19. Usul13

    Usul13 Chieftain

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    I did a test game today. SVN 10316. I uploaded some screenshots about what is happening. I marked on some images the original tiles of the city and the extra tiles I get after I conquered it. Original tiles are marked with green stars, extra tiles marked with red circles. On one screenshot I marked 3 tiles with orange circles which represents the tiles I get after RCS starts working again.

    So my problem is that with RCS enabled after the conquest I expect to get the same tiles as the original owner (marked by green stars). Instead I get big crosses. I stabilized the conquered city on turn 95. On turn 112 I already have a huge area around the city. I shouldn't have those tiles I marked with red circles.

    It seems that it has nothing to do with the extra influence from the battles. See below.

    You are talking about the IDW Enabled option on the RevDCM tab (last screenshot)? I reloaded my test game and I tried to disable it before I declared war on India and I got exactly the same results as before. So I think the problem lies elsewhere.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. alberts2

    alberts2 Chieftain

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    The checksum code is used to check if the assets changed since a game was saved. If they did the modifier recalculation pop's up. However it doesn't seem to trigger sometimes and it does sometimes without any changes:crazyeye:.

    Since the modifier recalculation can't fix all the save compatibility issues caused by asset or code changes but instead gives the illusion of full save compatibility i would get rid of it and remove the lots of checksum code as well.
     

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