So Islam is a religion of peace?

[Masada]

The PKK does, and they're secular nationalists like the IRA. To a certain extent, the use of suicide tends to map to desperation rather than ideological affiliation.

Two Presidents and counting! Suck that AQ!

 

[salty mud]

Maybe you should shuffle through the Old Testament or ask the the godless Sodomites or Philistinians how they feel? I really don't understand the double standards here. Some of you bigoted idiots can't seem to wrap your head around how human society or civilization works. Who could have imagined that Timbuktu, one of the richest cities in the world would someday turn into a backwater? Or that women in Algeria (a former French colony) had better rights to divorce and inheritance than French women for 800 years?

You would like to think that Islam is some kind of extraordinarily barbaric religion (meaning more so than Christianity or Judaism) but it is not. You can try to simplify an extremely complex situation for the pleasure of your simple mind but reality speaks otherwise. If you really are worried abound the effects of Islam than why don't you compare Indonesia to other Asean (south east Asian) countries, or Senegal with Ghana or Turkey to Bulgaria. It is very easy to pick the most volatile region in the world to the most stable and prosporeous and then blame Islam for everything that is wrong but if you compare two similar countries (interms of their history, economics and culture) of different religions, the difference becomes very minimal. 70 years from now if people would be looking at this, I am certain that they would laugh at your ignorance.

To sum it up name a genocide, misogynistic viewpoint or violence that the Quran advocates that the Bible already hasn't covered?

Well, well, well... to use an often overused "meme," u mad... u very mad.

People could well be laughing at my "ignorance" in seventy years, but I am laughing at your ignorance right now. Quite heartily so.

Why can't you acknowledge what is right in front of you? I've linked you to the Quran's hate speech. I've shown that Muslim suicide bombers are a frequent, regular occurrence.

If you compare the Western World today, (which is overwhelmingly non-Muslim) it is mostly a land of democracy, peace and stability. Sure, it has its ups and downs but everywhere in the world does. Now let's look at the Arab world (which is overwhelmingly Muslim) and we don't have to look hard to see what a mess it is. Suicide bombings, oppression of women, oppression of different religions, even violence between members of the same religion; we all know Sunnis and Shi'ites can't stand each other.

But it's their culture, you say? Ok then, maybe it is the Arab culture that is violent and barbaric. It must be their culture that forces them to commit atrocities.

Some Muslim countries are more tolerant, I admit, and I am happy to admit this. But you must also admit these are the exception to the rule; for every "tolerant" Muslim nation, I can name 5 intolerant.

 

[Global Skeptic]

Well, well, well... to use an often overused "meme," u mad... u very mad.

People could well be laughing at my "ignorance" in seventy years, but I am laughing at your ignorance right now. Quite heartily so.

Why can't you acknowledge what is right in front of you? I've linked you to the Quran's hate speech. I've shown that Muslim suicide bombers are a frequent, regular occurrence.

If you compare the Western World today, (which is overwhelmingly non-Muslim) it is mostly a land of democracy, peace and stability. Sure, it has its ups and downs but everywhere in the world does. Now let's look at the Arab world (which is overwhelmingly Muslim) and we don't have to look hard to see what a mess it is. Suicide bombings, oppression of women, oppression of different religions, even violence between members of the same religion; we all know Sunnis and Shi'ites can't stand each other.

But it's their culture, you say? Ok then, maybe it is the Arab culture that is violent and barbaric. It must be their culture that forces them to commit atrocities.

Some Muslim countries are more tolerant, I admit, and I am happy to admit this. But you must also admit these are the exception to the rule; for every "tolerant" Muslim nation, I can name 5 intolerant.

Peace with you, salty mud. But if your answer is to live by the sword, then...

 

[Traitorfish]

Some Muslim countries are more tolerant, I admit, and I am happy to admit this. But you must also admit these are the exception to the rule; for every "tolerant" Muslim nation, I can name 5 intolerant.

You could have said the same thing about Christian countries a couple of centuries ago, so what does that prove?

Nobody is saying that majority-Muslims countries are necessarily tolerant, simply that they aren't necessarily intolerant. The only one making essentialist claims about "Islam" is you, and all that's necessary to debunk that is to provide a single contrary example, not to establish the opposite essentialism. "Islam" does not have to be intrinsically violent or intrinsically peaceful, any more than Christianity or Germany or the colour blue.

 

[El_Machinae]

Who's more likely to riot, a Muslim or a football fan?

Let's bring it down to fanaticism: the Muslim who pays money to whatever Muslims buy or the football fan who buys tickets to games?

Why're football fans more likely to riot than tennis fans? Is it because tennis is more a 'sport of peace'? Is there something intrinsically violent about football?

 

[Leoreth]

Same way drunk driving is dangerous even though most drunk driving incidents don't end with somebody getting hurt or killed. Get smashed and get behind the wheel, you've actually only got about a one-in-three-hundred chance of actually killing somebody. However, even though this number is low, it's far higher than your chance of killing somebody while driving sober.

Drunk driving is an action. "Islam" is not.

The "level of violence" in a thing is entirely relative. The Earth today is relatively peaceful compared to Earth in the past--and the further back you go, the more violent our history generally is. Islam is not hugely violent, but the fact remains that Islam is a lot more violent than everybody else on this planet.

How can you compare "Islam" and "everybody else"?

 

[Global Skeptic]

How can you compare "Islam" and "everybody else"?

Mexico, parts of South America, parts of Africa, North Korea and what not springs to mind.

 

[J. pride]

Well, well, well... to use an often overused "meme," u mad... u very mad.

People could well be laughing at my "ignorance" in seventy years, but I am laughing at your ignorance right now. Quite heartily so.

The majority of the people on this forum are laughing at you right now, so Its not like your viewpoint is exactly popular.

Why can't you acknowledge what is right in front of you? I've linked you to the Quran's hate speech.

First off don't bring the Quran up unless you have noted something that the Bible already doesn't advocate. So all this hate stuff is not unique in any way.

If you compare the Western World today, (which is overwhelmingly non-Muslim) it is mostly a land of democracy, peace and stability. Sure, it has its ups and downs but everywhere in the world does. Now let's look at the Arab world (which is overwhelmingly Muslim) and we don't have to look hard to see what a mess it is. Suicide bombings, oppression of women, oppression of different religions, even violence between members of the same religion; we all know Sunnis and Shi'ites can't stand each other.

The Western world is not a religion; this thread's main concern is to assess whether Islam is an especially violent religion. As I have pointed out when you compare Indonesia to Thailand, India to Bangladesh, Sudan to Congo, or Senegal to Ivory Coast this doesn't seem to be the case. What you are getting at are cultural and circumstantial factors. If you say that Arab (Ill include Iran, Af-Pak regions just for the point of this discussion, the rest of the Islamic World doesn't seem to have any major problems) culture is inherently violent and inferior than you must also concede that Sub-Saharan African culture is barbaric as well. Sub-Saharan Africa makes everything in the middle east look like a piece of cake. We are talking about multiple genocides spanning multiple countries, female mutilation, rape, you name it. While we are on the subject similar claims could be made about Indian, South American, Russian and South East Asian cultures. If you are worried about human rights abuses trust me there have been far wider cases of genocide and oppression outside the middle east. Your argument really isn't that the Arabs are barbaric but rather that the rest of the world is somehow inferior to the West. Just so you know the Protestant-Catholic Wars spanning multiple centuries make any Sunni-Shiite conflict into child's play.

But it's their culture, you say? Ok then, maybe it is the Arab culture that is violent and barbaric. It must be their culture that forces them to commit atrocities.

Just as soon as you are willing to admit that England is a misogynistic, xenophobic country because it used to burn witches, colonized and killed the inhabitants of North America and starved millions of Indians by its policies of social Darwinism. Here is what Churchill thought of the people of the subcontinent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.html
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2005/06/05/stories/2005060500170300.htm

You know what you and Mr.Churchill have in common. Both think that a culture is inferior while at the same time actively trying to screw it. But just like Churchill was proved wrong, so will you.

Some Muslim countries are more tolerant, I admit, and I am happy to admit this. But you must also admit these are the exception to the rule; for every "tolerant" Muslim nation, I can name 5 intolerant.

Not really, more than 70% of Muslims in the world live in Indonesia, Sub-Saharan Africa, India, Maghreb, China,Turkey, Central Asia and Russia. Places where Islam is rarely used as a tool for mysogeny or hatred.

Spoiler :

I want to stress that I do not think that the cultures of Subsaharan Africa, Britain or for that matter any country are inferior but rather to refute the point by using the same argument.

 

[Leoreth]

Mexico, parts of South America, parts of Africa, North Korea and what not springs to mind.

Which properties do Mexico, parts of South America, parts of Africa, North Korea etc. share with Islam to make them comparable?

 

[Flying Pig]

Why're football fans more likely to riot than tennis fans? Is it because tennis is more a 'sport of peace'? Is there something intrinsically violent about football?

A gentleman's game played by hooligans, and all that...

Golf, Fencing, Polo and Cricket are Gentleman's games. Football is not.

Rugby player's joke. Our code has plenty of opportunity to beat the snot out of each other and pretend it was an accident - so one would expect it to be played by hooligans - and yet rugby players tend to be among the most sporting you'll meet. Football has so little opportunity to break the rules or do anything nasty to the opposition - hence one would expect it to be played by gentlemen - and yet the players still manage to sink to ever-increasing depths of unsporting behaviour. Although if anybody saw the France/Spain basketball match last night, that surely comes close.

As for cricket, any game for which the kit can include a wooly pullover suffers from the defect that you're not working hard enough!

 

[J. pride]

A gentleman's game played by hooligans, and all that...

Golf, Fencing, Polo and Cricket are Gentleman's games. Football is not.

 

[Masada]

Not really, more than 70% of Muslims in the world live in Indonesia, Sub-Saharan Africa, India, Maghreb, China,Turkey, Central Asia and Russia. Places where Islam is rarely used as a tool for mysogeny or hatred.

This can't be stressed enough. There's more Muslims in Java (~110 million) than there are people in the Arabian Peninsula (~70 million).

 

[Global Skeptic]

Which properties do Mexico, parts of South America, parts of Africa, North Korea etc. share with Islam to make them comparable?

I wouldn't be able to answer that because they are not the same, the former ones are geographical(political) areas where as Islam is not. If you then start looking at the areas Islam covers with other areas you could look for general violence and ask if Islam is worse.

 

[del62]

I would not reference Indonesia as some glowing place where minorities are not persecuted

http://www.persecutionofahmadis.org/indonesia-attacks-on-religious-minorities-remain-largely-unchallenged-by-justice-institutions/

 

[Global Skeptic]

I feel part of it, is that some of us feel that we are at war with Islam and others don't feel that.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think that you'll find that desertification is a superior correlate to violence than religion.

 

[Leoreth]

I wouldn't be able to answer that because they are not the same, the former ones are geographical(political) areas where as Islam is not.

Precisely my point.

If you then start looking at the areas Islam covers with other areas you could look for general violence and ask if Islam is worse.

No, you could look for general violence (let's assume we can come up with a satisfying metric for this rather vague category) and could ask if the areas where Islam are practiced (by a majority/sufficient portion of the population). That in itself doesn't allow you to conclude anything about the religion Islam. Not even about Islam as practiced in the countries we're looking at (which is usually the Middle East in this context).

If you want to arrive at conclusions about the religion, you have to make an argument why the violence is caused by the religion. Causation, correlation and all that.

 

[HannibalBarka]

I think the OP is not clear enough.

1. The OP needs the define "Islam" in the question. Is he referring to Islam as
a. The text ie the Quran, maybe the Hadith etc basiclly the texts and acts of the Prophet that "defines" Islam. We may still have the problems of "who is rightly reading the Quran" ie Interpretation.
b. the Muslims: Islam is what Muslims practice (or at least the majority of them). In that case should we include Muslims of today or Muslims since 540AD?
c. some thing else?

2. Second needed clarification is in the "violent" part. Are we talking in absolute? or relative to other religions/philosophies?

3. 3rd is are asking if Islam is violent in it's essence or are we trying to see if Islam has a violent component to it.

As long as we do not determine at least 1 and 2, I think we're not necessarily answerring the same question all.

 

[Masada]

I would not reference Indonesia as some glowing place where minorities are not persecuted

I'm not sure SKB 3/2008 constitutes persecution? I agree its illiberal for banning Ahmadi from teaching that there was a prophet after Muhammad buuuuut on the other hand it also makes clear that violence against them is illegal. I'll also admit that the fundies like the FPI have engaged in violence against Ahmadi but that needs to be set against Muhammadiyah and Nahdlatul Ulama, the two giants* of the Indonesian religious scene, counselling non-violence and the police and courts punishing the perpetrators.

* Both claim memberships of about 30 million each. I don't think the FPI, FUI and HTI between them even a fraction of that. The last time I bothered to check, HTI claims something like a million/million-and-a-half members for its global operations.

 

[GoodGame]

I think that you'll find that desertification is a superior correlate to violence than religion.

Interesting point.