So Islam is a religion of peace?

[del62]

I'm not sure SKB 3/2008 constitutes persecution? I agree its illiberal for banning Ahmadi from teaching that there was a prophet after Muhammad buuuuut on the other hand it also makes clear that violence against them is illegal. I'll also admit that the fundies like the FPI have engaged in violence against Ahmadi but that needs to be set against Muhammadiyah and Nahdlatul Ulama, the two giants* of the Indonesian religious scene, counselling non-violence and the police and courts punishing the perpetrators.

* Both claim memberships of about 30 million each. I don't think the FPI, FUI and HTI between them even a fraction of that. The last time I bothered to check, HTI claims something like a million/million-and-a-half members for its global operations.

It is not just attacks on Ahmadi's though if you read this article from the BBC from 2011 you will see a mob of 1000 dtormed a courthouse and attacked to Churches because a Christian was only sentenced to 5 years for insulting Islam (they wanted the death penalty).

 

[Masada]

So a mob storming a courthouse and burning churches constitutes persecution now?

 

[del62]

So a mob storming a courthouse and burning churches constitutes persecution now?

I can't see how burning churhes doesn't, but 5 years in jail to a Christian for insulting Islam certainly does.

Perhaps not in your world though.

 

[Tahuti]

While I used to think the very opposite, I do now believe that in Arab countries generally have more of a culture of willingness to use violence against perceived injustices and have a much more persisting view of what such injustices are, while Japanese - with their Confucian influenced attitudes towards politics in general - have a certain willingness to adjust their views on morality on the dominant power (in this case the Allied occupation of Japan) and swallow it.

Religions can never be instrinsically more or less violent, but cultural values can, and I do think most religiously inspired acts of violence are better understood as exported cultural values, and in the case of Islam, Arab culture. Now, you absolutely shouldn't take me for an apologist of colonialism or cultural imperialist - I don't believe there are superior or inferior cultures, and all cultures are by definition malleable anyway, as all cultures underwent changes to some extent due to political, religious and economic realities - but all cultures are in their core nothing but precendent set by the history of the society, and this shows in its art, architecture, music, but also morality, religion, law and politics. Considering their history, most Middle-Eastern countries have a significantly different world-view than Western countries have to begin, and this has influenced Islam, rather than the other way around. For example, Armenia - despite being Christian - is almost certainly more similiar to its neighbouring Muslim neighbours (including its grave Turkic enemies) than, say the UK, Italy or France, and to same goes to many Christian denominations that are primarily active in the Middle-East. Headscarves were introduced by Cyrus the Great well before the rise of Islam.

 

[Leoreth]

I agree that looking at Arab culture might in many cases provide a better explanation of Arab Muslim actions than looking at Islam would.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think its fair to say that you can't be critical of the ideology of Islam without a fair amount of mud being slung at you from certain quarters.

Of course if you criticise Islam in a lot of muslim majority countries, then your fate can be worse than a bit of mud slung at you.

Be as critical as you like. But I feel it's rather presumtious to say to Muslims who are practising their faith peacefully they are doing it wrong. I feel it's counterproductive with regard to the discourse to side wiyh the extremist, just so you can get your superiority freak on. This goes not just for Islam, but also for political or economical ideologies.

Be as critical as you like, but don't act all surprised if others realise you cannot pidgeonhole something which has such a diversity in interpretation and practise.

Who's more likely to riot, a Muslim or a football fan?

Let's bring it down to fanaticism: the Muslim who pays money to whatever Muslims buy or the football fan who buys tickets to games?

Why're football fans more likely to riot than tennis fans? Is it because tennis is more a 'sport of peace'? Is there something intrinsically violent about football?

Excellent.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

I get the impression Sunni Islam is, on average, more violent than Shi'a Islam as well.

The National Counter Terrorism Center would agree with you, based on numbers rather than impression.
Go to page 11 of their public 2011 annual report
http://www.nctc.gov/docs/2011_NCTC_Annual_Report_Final.pdf
"Sunni Extremist" inflicted over 70% of worldwide terrorism fatalities, and Shias did not even do enough to be broken out from the 1.35% inflicted by "Other" perpetrators.

 

[del62]

Be as critical as you like. But I feel it's rather presumtious to say to Muslims who are practising their faith peacefully they are doing it wrong. I feel it's counterproductive with regard to the discourse to side wiyh the extremist,

I am actually loking at muslim majority regimes and not just extremists amd their persecution of minorites, like people jailed in Indonesia for criticising Islam.

Also show me the post where I have said we should side with the opinions of the extremist.

Also do you consider people like the muslim brotherhood extremists or not, because in the Arab world they are pretty representitive of a lot of muslims.

just so you can get your superiority freak on.

Pathetic mud slinging

 

[Traitorfish]

I am actually loking at muslim majority regimes and not just extremists amd their persecution of minorites, like people jailed in Indonesia for criticising Islam.

Your biases are showing.

 

[del62]

That should have been country not regime, but Indonesia has still jailed a Christian for 5 years for criticising Islam.

 

[Ajidica]

And in the UK a man was arrested for not smiling during the Olympics.
Your point?

 

[del62]

And was he put in jail for 5 years or released without a cuation or charge within 2 hours?

Talk about pointless

 

[Ajidica]

Every judicial system occasionaly gets oddities that, while technically legal, are far outside the norm. Unless you can demonstrate that events like that consistantly occur in Indonesia and steps are not being taken to rectify it you really don't have a point. Rather, you are hunting for specifics to try and make a generalization without regard to the quality of the generalization.

 

[Traitorfish]

That should have been country not regime, but Indonesia has still jailed a Christian for 5 years for criticising Islam.

And England used to burn people for belonging to the wrong denomination. So I wouldn't make too much of that.

 

[ParkCungHee]

And England used to burn people for belonging to the wrong denomination. So I wouldn't make too much of that.

Used to?

Edit: Scratch that, read "England" as "Britain"

 

[Traitorfish]

Fair point, but Northern Ireland isn't a legitimate analogy because something something dirty great bog trotters. Or so I've gathered.

 

[del62]

So you have never heard about prosecutions under Indonesia's Blasphemy Law and human rights organisations criticism of it?

They are not just one of cases.

If steps where being taken to rectify it the Indonesian government would repeal it, which they refuse to do.

Examples

An atheist who faces five years in prison for a face book page,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16644141

Light sentences for those who bludgeoned Ahmadiyah to death

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14330834

A recent example is the case of Welhelmina Holle in Masohi, Central Maluku, in December 2008. There were accusations and rumors that Holle, an elementary school teacher, had been offensive about a religion in one of his lectures in class.

As a result, a mob ran amok and destroyed 67 houses, a house of worship, and a community building. Hole was put on trial under the pretext of that law.

From http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/02/11/blasphemy-law-a-shackle-indonesian-people.html


There is much more here
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,USCIRF,,IDN,,4be2840a17,0.html

including the arrest of 42 protestants who each spend a year in jail in 2007

 

[Masada]

I can't see how burning churhes doesn't

So Britain is persecuting high street shop owners now?

but 5 years in jail to a Christian for insulting Islam certainly does.

The law in question gets used against other Muslims far more than against other Christians. It also criminalizes, among other things, insulting Christianity.

EDIT: It also protect minority religions by banning people from calling out on another from any faith to cease its practice.

 

[innonimatu]

This can't be stressed enough. There's more Muslims in Java (~110 million) than there are people in the Arabian Peninsula (~70 million).

Yes, but Meca is in Saudi Arabia. Tough luck, that's not giving muslims any good press.

 

[Dachs]

Yes, but Meca is in Saudi Arabia. Tough luck, that's not giving muslims any good press.

home rule? moar liek ROME RULE amirite