So what is really going on in Iraq?

[Neomega]

Nice... now I'm a liar. And to think I help protect your freedoms... Geez, what gratitude.

Let me get this straight.

You think I should be greatful, to you, for using your clearance, to greatly exaggerate whatever you have read, to claim that Iraq's WMD's were moved to another country. Furthermore, you think I should be happy about you trying to use your rank and job position, to overinflate the incontrovertibility of said evidence you claim to have seen?

No, I am far from greatful. I am sure there are many people who "oooh and ahhh" over your stature and top secret clearance, and if you told them you saw documents that Saddam Hussein ate babies for breakfast, they would believe you. I am sorry you have not met resistance to your outlandish claims before, (except perhaps those in higher ranks, who don't see it as enough to risk further illegitimatizing a presidency), but I for one am not going to stand aside and watch you make whatever claim you want under the guise of your secret clearance.

 

[nihilistic]

Nice... now I'm a liar. And to think I help protect your freedoms... Geez, what gratitude.

LMAO, is that your true colors? He claimed that you lied. You acknowledged that claim and and counterclaimed that in defense he is being ingrateful of your military service while providing absolutely no evidence that you may not have lied. In other words, are you saying that Neomega should condone your lying because you are allegedly in the military? So, because you claim to "protect our freedoms", anything you say must be unquestioned truth, even if all the evidence goes against it?

 

[Mano3]

LMAO, is that your true colors? He claimed that you lied. You acknowledged that claim and and counterclaimed that in defense he is being ingrateful of your military service while providing absolutely no evidence that you may not have lied. In other words, are you saying that Neomega should condone your lying because you are allegedly in the military? So, because you claim to "protect our freedoms", anything you say must be unquestioned truth, even if all the evidence goes against it?

Firt of all, what did I lie about? Second of all, I'm just trying to express what I know without comprimising US security, which I know puts me at a great disadvantage. Bottom line: all I'm saying is that a lot of what you see and read in the news is not correct and very biased. If I could point out the specifics without breaking security, I could, but I can't.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Moderator Action: One last chance to get the discussion back on on topic
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Neomega]

Firt of all, what did I lie about? Second of all, I'm just trying to express what I know without comprimising US security, which I know puts me at a great disadvantage. Bottom line: all I'm saying is that a lot of what you see and read in the news is not correct and very biased. If I could point out the specifics without breaking security, I could, but I can't.

+There are no WMD's

Yes, there are, but if I told you where they are, I'd have to kill you.

That is what you lied about.

You do not know where they are, niether does Donald Rumsfeld.

2. A huge majority of the insurgents are not Iraqi, but other Islamic extremists for other countries (Iran, Syria, etc.) looking for a fight and a place to push their radical ideas.

Also, government figure show most insurgent prisoners are Iraqis, not foreigners, so foreigners are not htemajority of the fighters. Even worse, you say "HUGE" majority. Well captured insurgents are almost 96% Iraqi

look

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/09/AR2005050901072.html

Note what Major General Wiliam H. Brandenburg, (hmm thats an O, you are an E, I'll take HIS word for it)

Other profiling information provided by Brandenburg shows that 96 percent of those in the detention camps are Iraqis and about 60 percent are either from Baghdad or Anbar provinces -- two areas where much of the insurgency has been concentrated. Only five detainees are female. Nearly three-fourths of the inmate population is between the ages of 20 and 40, and about 60 percent of the detainees have less than a high school education.

I bet he has access to Top secret documents too. I bet he has access to actual numbers of captured or killed insurgents too.

The insurgents are a very small minority, but they get all the press coverage.

Not really. To have thousands of people, IRAQI's (lets not try and dispute this any more with your secret documents) blindly charging American troops, and getting ripped to shreds with .50 cal machine guns and turned to blood and dust pancakes under tank treads tells me there are a lot more who are angry, but unwilling to die for it.

Furthermore, I have read PLENTY of quotes from soldiers and marines on the field who say "it is hard to tell who the enemy is, one minute they are waving at you, the next minute they are knifing you in the back"

Surely you cannot dispute that this is the kind of warfare our soldiers have been dropped into.

 

[zulu9812]

Also, government figure show most insurgent prisoners are Iraqis, not foreigners, so foreigners are not htemajority of the fighters. Even worse, you say "HUGE" majority. Well captured insurgents are almost 96% Iraqi

Not only that, but the Pentagon's own figures estimate that the foreign fighters make up approx. 5% of Iraqi insurgents.

 

[El_Machinae]

But, would you think that this 5% are leaders and organizers? I'd think their goal is to rally as many locals as possible.

 

[Mano3]

Regarding the WMD's:

The information I've been provided states the the WMD's were moved to a different country (not Syria). To say the name of that country would not only land me in jail, but the implications could be quite catastrophic.

Just because I can't tell you doesn't mean I'm lying. I have no personal gain to lie. Believe me, I wish the above country's name could be revealed, as it would quell some of the mis-conceptions. But alas, I can't. Sorry.

As for the insurgent information, I don't know how to justify that. All I can say is that there are foriegn radicals inciting the people there to fight. I can't reveal exact numbers.

Another thing that's going on is the corruption of certain citizens taking advantage of the situation, then blaming the negative consequences on the Americans. I realize that is a common thread in war-torn countries, but it sure doesn't help things.

 

[Kayak]

Regarding the WMD's:

The information I've been provided states the the WMD's were moved to a different country (not Syria). To say the name of that country would not only land me in jail, but the implications could be quite catastrophic.

I think, considering that this is supposedly secret, you probably have already gone too far. Let's just drop it.

As for the insurgent information, I don't know how to justify that. All I can say is that there are foriegn radicals inciting the people there to fight. I can't reveal exact numbers.

Of course there are. I question whether people would stop fighting if they left though. But I'm open on that one.

Another thing that's going on is the corruption of certain citizens taking advantage of the situation, then blaming the negative consequences on the Americans. I realize that is a common thread in war-torn countries, but it sure doesn't help things.

Again, a given. How much do you think that lack of planning and good oversight has exacerbated this situation though?

 

[Neomega]

But, would you think that this 5% are leaders and organizers? I'd think their goal is to rally as many locals as possible.

No!

Why is it so hard to believe that Iraqis don't like foreign troops in their country!? That they don't like foeigners trying to dictate how their oil will flow and for how much!?

This is stupid! Quit guessing! I bring you evidence, from a major general, and instead of accepting it, you WANT to BELIEVE it is not what it is.

Iraqis know the terrain, Iraqis know their cities, Iraqis know the routes, Iraqis have a history of resistance against OCCUPATION. (Bush said it, so don't deny what it is). It is Iraqis who are doing the fighting, Iraqis who are doing the leading, and Iraqis who are giving shelter to the foreigners. It is the neocons trying to claim that Iraqi's love America, and it's just a bunch of foreign terrorists messing everything up.

Regarding WMD's being moved to a different country:

there are 4 other countries bordering Iraq. WMD's would not have been able to be moved without official sanctioning by the government of the bordering countries, lets take a look:

Syria: the most likely to actually accept anything from Saddam, but they refused his sons

Kuwait: No - obvious
Jordan: No way - King too western friendly
Saudi Arabia: No - Way too close to the Bush administration, for them to have been moved to SA would mean serious conspiracy theoryism. Lets put it like this, if the wmd's were moved to Saudi Arabia, then the United States bombed it's own skyscrapers, or turned a blind eye to letting it happen.

Iran: Possible, but highly unlikely.... unless Chalabi is a double agent for Iran, and duped the United States into fighting Iraq for Iran.

Allthough I could be convinced this is a possiblity, what with Ahmadinejad seeming to almost want a war, and the disastrous consequences for America if it were to engage in war wth Iran at the moment, Chalabi was just recently put in charge of the oil ministry for a couple of days, whilst the original oil minister, Ibrahim Bahr al-Uloum was trying to resign because someone in the Iraqi government thought the Iraqi people should pay 4 times as much for their gas.

And it is ridiculous to think naming a country, is going to have any disastrous results. Because no-one is going ot believe you, or your Bush administration, because they have not been truthful about much of anything yet. So you have said "Iran", Whooptie-doo. You still said I MIGHT be eating crow, which means you aren't too sure how solid the evidence is. And your superiors, and Karl Rove don't think whatever "evidence" you have seen is enough to risk more of the administrations credibility on.... and that is saying alot since they were willing to fabricate a whole bunch.

But what would Iran have to gain by officially accepting Saddam's WMD's?
Nothing.


And if "we knew where they are", why did you not hear the neocons going into hissy fits, saying, we must invade now, Iraq is moving their weapons to Iran?
Why are the neocons trying to claim the weapons were moved to Syria?

 

[Neomega]

Just because I can't tell you doesn't mean I'm lying. I have no personal gain to lie. Believe me, I wish the above country's name could be revealed, as it would quell some of the mis-conceptions. But alas, I can't. Sorry.

Besides your bush-loving rightwing agenda?

As for the insurgent information, I don't know how to justify that. All I can say is that there are foriegn radicals inciting the people there to fight. I can't reveal exact numbers.

Now your coat changes colors again, and you retract what your so-called evidence told you. You said HUGE majority are foreigners, I bring in testimony of a major general to stomp your lie into the mud, and you turn around and say your secret numbers show that the foreigners are doing the inciting.

So now, IF I go and find evidence to the contrary, you'll say, "geeze, what I meant is they are the ones who are giving all the Iraiqs a wake up call at 7:30 AM, to synchronize the attacks, I saw it in my secret papers." I bring evidence against that, and you say, "what I was saying was, that the foreigners are boosting morale of the Iraqi insurgents, I have seen secret photos of them in miniskirts and waving pom-poms."... and what do you know, you weren't lying after all. Here it is, obtained by another "white house leak"

Moderator Action: Warned for trolling
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[Duke of Marlbrough]

Moderator Action: And so it ends. Closed due to continued trolling and flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889