Social Statism

Ethical philosophy certainly has a role to play in the examination of existing moral beliefs and the inspiration of new ones, but it is subject to some pretty major limitations.

For one thing, the adoption of first principles on which to base ethical inquiry is notoriously tricky, and we have no guarantee that any such principles we might adopt could not be contradicted by other, equally plausible, principles yet to be imagined. Even when we settle on a set of principles, the process of working them out into a vision of practical morality is fraught with further difficulty, given the mess of bias and instability that is moral language.
What alternative to do we have? If we don't have a coherent ethical philosophy, then we don't have a basis on which to evaluate the effectiveness of religion as providing a model of ethical behaviour. Your proposed project necessarilly presupposes an ethics- unless I'm misunderstanding?

More important to the present point, however, is the fact that we humans almost never act as if our morality is derived from philosophical principles, and are much more willing to judge philosophical arguments about morality by their 'fit' with our existing moral beliefs than vice versa. Leaving aside the question of whether (or, more precisely, when) this is the wrong way to look at things, it's clear that philosophy today is nowhere near capable of developing and sustaining a general sense of morality under its own power, and not at all clear that it will ever be able to do so.
You don't think that this is also true of religiously-derived morality? I can't say that the average Medieval potentate behaved much like somebody who got his script from Aquinas any more than from Aristotle, however more enthusiastic they may have been for rituals of the former than the physics of the latter.
 
I think this discussion about religion kind of misses the core point of Adams' quote (some posters did touch that point, like El Machinae and Traitorfish).

The point is not necessarily about religion, it is about whether a lack of self-restraint and "morality" by the population at large would force the state to take a greater role in everyday life, becoming more authoritarian.

A parable about the above point (which I don't know if actually happened, but it is frequently told as true): A Brazilian diplomat was in London during WW2. He went to a grocery and tried to buy a certain quantity of meat. The vendor told him: "Sorry sir, but there is a rationing going on and you can only buy half that amount per day". To which the Brazilian replied: "And what exactly is preventing me from crossing the street and buying more meat at another grocery?", to which the vendor answered: "Nothing is preventing you, but an Englishman would never do that."

The moral of the above parable is of course that there was no need for the state to create some repressive mechanism to enforce the rationing because the English people could be counted on their patriotism and civic duty to obey it. If something similar was attempted in Brazil, so the parable goes, the state would have to institute punishments for those who violated the rationing and of course find out a way to monitor that behavior. So, more state action and authoritarianism due to a lack of self-restraint and "morality".

Again, I don't know whether or not that parable is true, and of course the real world is not that clear cut. But that is the gist of Adams' quote, not some empty discussion about the necessity of religion to behave morally.
 
But anyway, it seems by "transcendent authority" you mean some universal source of morality. Am I getting this right? So you think a "free market competition" of moral concepts is bound to fail and we need this central common source?

I think we already have a universal source of morality: the human condition. As Whiskey Lord points out above, moral behaviour itself is far older than any attempts to describe, proscribe or systematise it. Rooted deep in our psychology, an overwhelming majority of humans have a desire to behave morally. The questions we have to address, however, are concerned with the form that morality takes, how it works itself out into practical choices, and, above all, how we can frame and promote morality (or, perhaps, moralities) of a kind that best serves human needs.

When I talk about a 'transcendent' morality, I'm thinking very much in practical terms, responding to the dangers inherent to a society where massive, impersonal organisations wield such enormous power over how we live and how we think. The problem posed by these organisations is their limitation to narrow sets of aims, whereby morality is something to be used and manipulated, rather than being an end in itself. At any given time, the individuals working within (or, in more extreme cases, against) an organisation can mitigate the effects of this amorality through their own corrections. But, over time, the internal logic of organisations exercises a gravity that is extremely difficult for individuals to resist.

Nanocyborgasm frames the next part of my argument quite neatly, so I'll continue this line of thought in response to his post:

With all respect, Winston, that is no different than what was done in times of old. The role of the official state religion was to justify the authority of the ruler and ruling class. And the usual gimmick was to claim divine establishment of authority on earth in the form of the king. Morality was of secondary importance and only relevant when applied to maintain the state's control of both the wills and hearts of the people. Controlling the minds of the people by internalizing a notion of morality was useful in a society that didn't have widespread media and surveillance technology, ensuring that the people behaved in a predictable manner, especially one that benefited the state. All that has changed today is that this form of indirect mind control has shifted from the church to other sources. (But even there, televangelism still allows some hold to be maintained.)

You are on the right lines here about the role of organised religion in the past: it behaved in a manner very similar to that which I am pointing out with regards to organisations in the modern age. Where I think you have it backwards, however, is the notion that its purpose was to serve the interests of the state. Rather, in providing legitimacy and moral guidance to the state, organised religion acted in pursuit of its own interests. Certainly, these actions could often serve the interests of particular rulers or classes. But, when push came to shove, organised religions would have no hesitation in going against state interests if those conflicted with their own.

For the present point, though, the key difference between religious and (most) non-religious organisations is the presence in the former of a transcendent moral purpose - a purpose that is not limited to the advancement of the organisation in question. As I mentioned earlier, the many examples religion offers us of how such purposes can be corrupted by the internal logic of organisation are valuable indeed. But these all-too-common failings should not be allowed to disguise the fact that the transcendent moral purpose was preserved in religion even through some of its most egregious subversions. Indeed, looking over the history of Christianity in particular, we can see a constantly evolving battle taking place between its higher moral aims and its more basic organisational interests.

Considering a world dominated by organisations that have no commitment to morality beyond that which serves their narrow interests, in which the myths and narratives that sustain morality are relentlessly corrupted by such interests, we can see that the passage of time might diminish our ability to recognise and preserve notions of higher purpose in our societies. The desire to act morally will persist, at least for as long as we remain recognisably human in our psychology, but a weakening of our grasp on transcendent moral aims might leave us, as a species, terribly impoverished.

The reason, then, that I believe we must look to the history of religion is that it holds answers as to how higher purposes might be sustained against the relentless pressure of interest and power. Some of its examples are positive - they give us clues as to how we might maintain a space for transcendent morality in our lives - while many others are negative, illuminating the pitfalls that must be avoided.

What alternative to do we have? If we don't have a coherent ethical philosophy, then we don't have a basis on which to evaluate the effectiveness of religion as providing a model of ethical behaviour. Your proposed project necessarilly presupposes an ethics- unless I'm misunderstanding?

It presupposes the same meta-ethical assumption that underpins (most) ethical philosophy: that 'might makes right' does not provide a satisfactory account of morality. Without doubt, we could spend much time finding justifications for this assumption, but I don't think it's necessary to do so, beyond saying that the 'might makes right' formula contradicts the very notion of morality as conceived and practiced by humans around the world and throughout history. That is to say, aside from a few socially detached and philosophically inclined individuals, nobody seriously questions the idea that morality should be more than just a justification for power.

You don't think that this is also true of religiously-derived morality? I can't say that the average Medieval potentate behaved much like somebody who got his script from Aquinas any more than from Aristotle, however more enthusiastic they may have been for rituals of the former than the physics of the latter.

Absolutely, I agree that religious theory is no better (and, often, much worse) a guide than its secular counterparts.

What I'm more interested in here, though, is the sustenance of transcendent morality through practice, which is something that religion, for all its faults and failings, has proved remarkably adept at achieving.
 
Spoiler :
I think this discussion about religion kind of misses the core point of Adams' quote (some posters did touch that point, like El Machinae and Traitorfish).

The point is not necessarily about religion, it is about whether a lack of self-restraint and "morality" by the population at large would force the state to take a greater role in everyday life, becoming more authoritarian.

A parable about the above point (which I don't know if actually happened, but it is frequently told as true): A Brazilian diplomat was in London during WW2. He went to a grocery and tried to buy a certain quantity of meat. The vendor told him: "Sorry sir, but there is a rationing going on and you can only buy half that amount per day". To which the Brazilian replied: "And what exactly is preventing me from crossing the street and buying more meat at another grocery?", to which the vendor answered: "Nothing is preventing you, but an Englishman would never do that."

The moral of the above parable is of course that there was no need for the state to create some repressive mechanism to enforce the rationing because the English people could be counted on their patriotism and civic duty to obey it. If something similar was attempted in Brazil, so the parable goes, the state would have to institute punishments for those who violated the rationing and of course find out a way to monitor that behavior. So, more state action and authoritarianism due to a lack of self-restraint and "morality".

Again, I don't know whether or not that parable is true, and of course the real world is not that clear cut. But that is the gist of Adams' quote, not some empty discussion about the necessity of religion to behave morally.
You, sir, have nailed it.
 
Ok, basic question.

What kind of morality in a Western Society (only because I live there, so I can easier relate to and discuss it, not because it's the only one that matters) is enforced by religions which are not already enforced by the State. For the State to become more authoritarian, there has to be an area that religions do cover and are accepted by the whole of Western Civilisations as moral.

This is where I have the biggest beef with the OP:
If a country begins abandoning God and loses its self-restraint collectively in its population as a result
Use of the words: "collectively" and "as a result".

A country like the Netherlands perhaps? In what way are we "losing our self-restraint collectively"?
 
The point is not necessarily about religion, it is about whether a lack of self-restraint and "morality" by the population at large would force the state to take a greater role in everyday life, becoming more authoritarian.

Quite so, but a consideration of that point can lead us to wonder why a population might lack that self-restraint and morality. The reference to religion in the OP's quote reflects the role that religion was seen to play in sustaining those qualities. Others have argued that religion played no such role, while I have been making a case that (to some extent) it did, and that in its absence we find ourselves in need of alternative means.
 
Wasn't there that Treaty of Tripoli stating that the US is in no way a Christian nation? Treaties are usually something that's approved by the whole of congress.
It is in no way a Christian nation, it is a secular nation, with no state religion.
However, the overwhelming majority of the people, since 4 July 1776, have always been Christian in America.
 
It presupposes the same meta-ethical assumption that underpins (most) ethical philosophy: that 'might makes right' does not provide a satisfactory account of morality. Without doubt, we could spend much time finding justifications for this assumption, but I don't think it's necessary to do so, beyond saying that the 'might makes right' formula contradicts the very notion of morality as conceived and practiced by humans around the world and throughout history. That is to say, aside from a few socially detached and philosophically inclined individuals, nobody seriously questions the idea that morality should be more than just a justification for power.
Fair point. I hadn't considered that dimension.

Absolutely, I agree that religious theory is no better (and, often, much worse) a guide than its secular counterparts.

What I'm more interested in here, though, is the sustenance of transcendent morality through practice, which is something that religion, for all its faults and failings, has proved remarkably adept at achieving.
I suppose I see what you mean, but I do wonder about the extent to which religion facilitated the practice of a "transcendent morality", and the extent to which it simply provided a mode of articulation. Perhaps I'm not looking at this comprehensively enough, but it seems that people for whom religion plays this role tend to possess in a heavily religious worldview in all respects, so pretty much everything becomes articulated in religious terms.
 
@luiz
Morality is good for society and the lack therefor requires more controlling measures is a rather mood point, don't you think? More interesting is what constitutes the morality of a society.
I think we already have a universal source of morality: the human condition. As Whiskey Lord points out above, moral behaviour itself is far older than any attempts to describe, proscribe or systematise it. Rooted deep in our psychology, an overwhelming majority of humans have a desire to behave morally.
What a non-answer. There is no need to lecture me on how morality is partially rooted in human nature. However, I do think you need a reminder that it is also partially opposed by human nature.
The questions we have to address, however, are concerned with the form that morality takes, how it works itself out into practical choices, and, above all, how we can frame and promote morality (or, perhaps, moralities) of a kind that best serves human needs.
Yes, yes. That is what we are talking about right now. Are you reminding me our yourself? :p But at last, you cut to the point:
When I talk about a 'transcendent' morality, I'm thinking very much in practical terms, responding to the dangers inherent to a society where massive, impersonal organisations wield such enormous power over how we live and how we think.[...]
But, over time, the internal logic of organisations exercises a gravity that is extremely difficult for individuals to resist.
Sure, economics is not about being moral and in fact promotes immorality. But I have to wonder how religion did ever anything significant to change that. Were per-industrial economics more moral? Where industrial economics for that matter? I doubt it. In fact, it strikes me as naive to think that the morality can withstand the demands of economic life. If you want morality to transcend economic life, you will have to adapt economic life to morality. The other way around won't work.

That of course is not to say that morality wields no power of its own. First, there are other areas of life, namely the private and public life and secondly, while morality IMO can not withstand economic demands, it can soften them to a degree.
And I think what you have to say about the necessity of this "transcending morality" (which in spite of my confidence I did still not understand after all, but now, I am sure :D) is in principle a good point, but the way you present it, it also stays hopelessly vague. How would one actually go about to capture such a need I ask?
 
@luiz
Morality is good for society and the lack therefor requires more controlling measures is a rather mood point, don't you think? More interesting is what constitutes the morality of a society.
I don't know if it's moot (I can actually see a good debate on how the state can determine the moral rules on a society that lacks 'traditional" moral values), but anyway, that's how I read Adams' quote: that the laws of the USA were designed to a moral people capable of self-restraint, and would be unsuited for a people that does not meet those standards (and could become unsuited for the American people itself if they were to change).
 
I suppose I see what you mean, but I do wonder about the extent to which religion facilitated the practice of a "transcendent morality", and the extent to which it simply provided a mode of articulation. Perhaps I'm not looking at this comprehensively enough, but it seems that people for whom religion plays this role tend to possess in a heavily religious worldview in all respects, so pretty much everything becomes articulated in religious terms.

Personal experience suggests to me that there are plenty of religious believers who are quite willing and able to discuss moral matters without reference to their faith, but also that the belief in a higher power is something which can bolster those people's commitment to moral practice. I'm sure that there are many other believers for whom religion is the be-all and end-all of morality, and others still for whom belief in a higher power does little or nothing to promote moral behaviour. One of the ways in which I believe that we atheists can learn from religion is by seeking to understand such differences of emphasis and commitment.

What a non-answer. There is no need to lecture me on how morality is partially rooted in human nature.

You asked if I was arguing that we need a universal source, and I responded that we already have one. I don't see how that constitutes a 'non-answer'.

However, I do think you need a reminder that it is also partially opposed by human nature.

It's true that the self-interested aspects of human psychology will often oppose the moral aspect, but I'm not sure why I need a reminder. My entire point about the amorality of organisations rests on that assumption.

In fact, it strikes me as naive to think that the morality can withstand the demands of economic life. If you want morality to transcend economic life, you will have to adapt economic life to morality. The other way around won't work.

Oh, I totally agree. To suggest that organisations (including businesses and the states that regulate them) should be free from moral concerns is the exact opposite of what I mean to say. Reforming the aims and practices of those organisations so that they support and encourage moral behaviour is absolutely fundamental to countering the dangers of which I speak.

How would one actually go about to capture such a need I ask?

Well, you picked up on a few key ideas in your response to my first post, when you talked about ritual, support, help in practical matters, and faith in something bigger than oneself. A good starting point would be to look at how those features of religion might be adapted to non-religious settings.
 
I'm still a little puzzled what kind of moral behaviour we are talking about here. I take it no one is suggesting that religious people, robbed from their religion, will start murdering, stealing or cheating all of a sudden.
 
I'm still a little puzzled what kind of moral behaviour we are talking about here. I take it no one is suggesting that religious people, robbed from their religion, will start murdering, stealing or cheating all of a sudden.

Nope, I don't think anyone would suggest that. I think it's more the case that at Adams's time religion was still pretty much viewed as the main source of moral behavior, and thus "losing religion" and "losing morality" were seen as going hand to hand. What Adams could not antecipate is that while relgious belief itself would decline the morality influenced by it would not (and I don't think anyone would be unreasonable enough to deny the considerable influence of Christianity in the mainstream sense of morality of the West).
 
What Adams could not antecipate is that while relgious belief itself would decline the morality influenced by it would not (and I don't think anyone would be unreasonable enough to deny the considerable influence of Christianity in the mainstream sense of morality of the West).
It clearly was, but you will have many people deny this... without saying where it did come from.
 
Nope, I don't think anyone would suggest that.
Ok, does this mean that the case made in the OP is uniformly rejected as applied to today's society?

I think it's more the case that at Adams's time religion was still pretty much viewed as the main source of moral behavior, and thus "losing religion" and "losing morality" were seen as going hand to hand.
And again, I am wondering what kind of moral behaviour we are talking about here to which mr Adams is referring.

What specific kind of moral behaviour was promoted by religion? I'm not asking to argue, I'm asking because I can't think of any.

edit: That sounded all wrong. I meant: "I can't think of any that people would not adhere to if you took away their religion".
 
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

In short, was Adams right?

I'm late to the party, but here's my 2 cents.

I was under the impression that the U.S. constitution is for EVERY citizen, not just those who are moral and/or religious. Is religion even mentioned in the constitution aside from the clause that implies separation of church and state?

Plus, the above quote makes it sound like you can't be moral and religious at the same time. Which I find amusing, because that's probably not the intended message
 
And again, I am wondering what kind of moral behaviour we are talking about here to which mr Adams is referring.

What specific kind of moral behaviour was promoted by religion? I'm not asking to argue, I'm asking because I can't think of any.

Seeing as the US constitution was written in the age of slavery, ´moral behaviour´ is to be taken with a fairly big grain of salt.
 
You asked if I was arguing that we need a universal source, and I responded that we already have one. I don't see how that constitutes a 'non-answer'.
Because you dodged the actual question (needs the successful establishment of morality some sort of central authority) with the rather obvious observation that the human condition is sort of relevant to morality and that we are all humans. But whatever, maybe we just weren't on the same page here.
It's true that the self-interested aspects of human psychology will often oppose the moral aspect, but I'm not sure why I need a reminder. My entire point about the amorality of organisations rests on that assumption.
Oh I just found it questionable to portray human nature like some in essence moral entity, when in essence it has nothing to do with morality, but survival and all that stuff.
Oh, I totally agree. To suggest that organisations (including businesses and the states that regulate them) should be free from moral concerns is the exact opposite of what I mean to say. Reforming the aims and practices of those organisations so that they support and encourage moral behaviour is absolutely fundamental to countering the dangers of which I speak.
I see. Though that would inevitably cause disadvantages of competition and hence would economically screw you, but in principle we are in agreement then. ;)
Well, you picked up on a few key ideas in your response to my first post, when you talked about ritual, support, help in practical matters, and faith in something bigger than oneself. A good starting point would be to look at how those features of religion might be adapted to non-religious settings.
Yes I think such an approach holds much potential. Too bad I am not some insanely rich kid, otherwise I might give it a shot.
 
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