Something you should know about pizza delivery

If you were being serious, then I echo Valka's :rolleyes:

Seriously, the whole "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" thing is so cliché that I thought you were just trying to be funny.
 
I was not being serious.
 
So should I or should I not call you Shirley?
 
It's still just stuff. You don't get to keep it when you die, and none of it is particularly important compared to relationships and knowledge.
You don't mind if I keep my stuff while I'm still alive, do you? I've already donated some of it to the museum/Archives (I didn't feel I needed to hold on to the scrapbook and records from a craft cooperative I belonged to back in the '80s, and considering most of the other people involved have since died...). Considering that one of the people involved is a person of local historical interest, the Archives were happy to have it.
 
I feel bad for you if you don't think your knowledge, abilities and personal relationships are more important than the crap you own. Especially if you're correct about it.
That's getting overly personal, don't you think? Yes, I'm not in a position to just throw a few things in a suitcase and fly across the country. But then I'm also not in the position where I either have to, or want to. Did you miss the part where I mentioned my dad in the nursing home? I can't very well pack HIM up and take him with me, can I?

(hint: my father is one of my personal relationships, and is not part of the "crap" I own)
 
I got the impression that you considered Askthepizzaguy a unredeemable victim in the same way that someone from a postion of privilege unconciously looks down upon someone who doesn't have their same advantages (like Americans who felt bad about the tragedy in Haiti so they texted $10 to a celebrity relief fund and then posted about how much an enlighted humanitarian they were on facebook/twitter).

You then indicated that you never had a mentor or role model provide you with any motivation or encouragement growing up. I took this to mean that you didn't need any because presumeably your future was already assured.

Honestly, I could very, very easily take what you said as a personal attack and defend myself. A few members here such as Choxorn and Valka have known me since I joined this forum at the age of 12 and have been there through the whole process of discovering that I am indeed an individual, dealing with my childish attitudes and my naive statements. I vaguely recall posting a thread here when I was 13 saying that I hated rap and didn't understand why anyone would. To one on the outside, that would just be a kid being stupid. To me at the time, it was me celebrating the first year of me not listening to my parents and listening to music behind their backs at school with an MP3 player a friend gave me. I had decided, rather adamantly, that rap, county, screamo, metal, and opera would "never be a thing" in my tastes because it did really sound awful to me as I'd never heard any of it before.

It's a pointless story to share, but it saves me from going in-depth about how wrong you are about me. It also doesn't matter. Assuming I did get a silver spoon throughout my childhood and had everything arranged for me in a life of luxury, that does not invalidate my opinion. The word of the poor is not worth more than the word of the rich, and vice versa. Perhaps this doesn't work in practice in the 'free-for-all' we call life but it is indeed a viewpoint I hold and try to apply when I talk to people.

Regardless, my first initial assumption when listening to a plight of another human being is not that they are doing something wrong but that something wrong is being done to them. I would hazard a guess that this is mainly because of how my parents addressed everything when it came to me -- Bad things were all my fault, good things were because of them and their esteemed advice. I don't contest the fact that a lot of the time a situation can be improved by the victim or that the victim is missing some pretty obvious signals that could change the entire basis of the problem if they become aware of it.

There's no good reason that I should default to, "Welp, you suck. Better change." when someone tells me a story about their life. There's plenty of good reasons that I should default to, "This is important. Tell me a little more about it, can you explain how what you said is true?"

Forcing some advice down his throat before acknowledging what he's said sounds very... hm. I don't quite know the word to use here. There's a distinct disconnect in communication, I find. You hear what he's saying, but you're not listening. You instead assume that what he needs is the good-willed advice of someone who "gets it" rather than someone to listen to the plight he's gone through and share stories about how this situation is verifiable in different circles, what various options are in the business, and how the issue might be addressed directly rather than simply, "If you don't like it, leave trololololololo."

It may indeed be true that Pizzaguy is in this situation because of a failure on his part. That's not my place to decide unless he makes it clear that it is. You said yourself that he has ambition and that he's gone to college yet you are still insistent that throughout it all he's doing something wrong because clearly someone "doing it right" wouldn't be in his position. It's a little insulting to his character because it implies that what he's currently doing with his life is beneath him in your opinion. Pizza delivery can be a super fun job for the right people and he brought up an issue that showcased how the employee situation of the industry was worsening. The employees are the victims because there is nothing they can do about it except try and find a pizza company that doesn't bend their employees over the table or simply change professions completely (hint: this isn't good advice). Each type of delivery in different parts of the world come with their own advantages and disadvantages and this thread was a great way for Pizzaguy to find out if employees of the industry in other corners of the country and, by extension, the world are being as bent over as he has been over the previous decade.

To me, it's more important that the issue is directly addressed rather than call into question the character of the victim. You might be taking 'victim' to mean someone who is just a helpless soul but in this situation it means the receiving end of a negative act.

The dictionary definition of it: a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.

Pizzaguy, I'd say, has definitely been harmed by the actions of the pizza industry. Let's not try and paint him as a failure because of it.

Some people are not fortunate enough to have a mentor or role model. I don't know if that's how it was with Synsensa, but that's how it is with all too many people.

Correct-o. I had/have an awesome combination of a narcissistic father and mother. The only type of mentoring I ever got was that I should be a slave to the will of my parents and anything else is a direct affront to how life should really be. As far as I can tell, that isn't a silver spoon being placed in my mouth, but I could obviously be a bit of a narcissist myself and think I hold no evil inside this noggin of mine.

It's still just stuff. You don't get to keep it when you die, and none of it is particularly important compared to relationships and knowledge.

Stuff can hold a lot of sentimental value. Relics of memories, echoes of past relationships, pieces of your ambitions and passions. Human life is indeed more important than any item, but items are still important. Maybe this would not be the case for a chronic hoarder but for a respectable older woman like Valka I would assume she doesn't keep random useless trinkets around and instead keeps stuff that fills her with happiness or at least makes her feel comfortable in her own home.

Note the usage of the word home. What you're proposing involves stripping the concept of an individualized home for most individuals, and since someone like Valka has inevitably spent the past couple decades getting to this point, throwing it all away and starting over sounds like it would rob her of relationships and knowledge rather than enrich her life. I imagine this is the case for most other people as well. If you don't have much reason to stay somewhere and your life is devoid of passions or ambitions that are personalized to your being or you happen to be an individual that always wants to move then sure, what you're saying would be great. In those cases, though, I don't really think the people in question would even have more stuff than what fits into a suitcase. :confused:

That's getting overly personal, don't you think? Yes, I'm not in a position to just throw a few things in a suitcase and fly across the country. But then I'm also not in the position where I either have to, or want to. Did you miss the part where I mentioned my dad in the nursing home? I can't very well pack HIM up and take him with me, can I?

(hint: my father is one of my personal relationships, and is not part of the "crap" I own)

Taking care of loved ones who are dependent on the kindness of other human beings is soooooo naive. Get with the picture, Valka. You can surely fit your kitty cats inside your suitcase with a change of clothes and move to the backwater states of America. It doesn't matter about your limitations or your personality, you totally can live in a communal area that has no proper kitchen and costs only slightly less than a really bad private apartment. To hell with your father! Let him eat cake!

Okay, so I know Zelig doesn't hold that exact opinion, but exaggeration and the fact that some people do hold that opinion makes me feel like that was a worthwhile paragraph. I'm pretty much the opposite of it, though. Just making that clear. :p
 
I feel bad for you if you don't think your knowledge, abilities and personal relationships are more important than the crap you own. Especially if you're correct about it.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.
 
Honestly, I could very, very easily take what you said as a personal attack and defend myself. A few members here such as Choxorn and Valka have known me since I joined this forum at the age of 12 and have been there through the whole process of discovering that I am indeed an individual, dealing with my childish attitudes and my naive statements. I vaguely recall posting a thread here when I was 13 saying that I hated rap and didn't understand why anyone would. To one on the outside, that would just be a kid being stupid. To me at the time, it was me celebrating the first year of me not listening to my parents and listening to music behind their backs at school with an MP3 player a friend gave me. I had decided, rather adamantly, that rap, county, screamo, metal, and opera would "never be a thing" in my tastes because it did really sound awful to me as I'd never heard any of it before.
Well it wasn't my goal to attack you personally. I did feel it was important to attack the notion that Askthepizzaguy is a powerless victim though. This thread isn't a theoretical one, there is a guy here in a real life situtation. Victimhood is a really harmful place to be- once you get sucked into that trap you have given up on any self actualization. Your comments came across with that flavor of intellectual elitistism that dismisses the proletariat to their fate while claiming to be their savior.

It's a pointless story to share, but it saves me from going in-depth about how wrong you are about me. It also doesn't matter. Assuming I did get a silver spoon throughout my childhood and had everything arranged for me in a life of luxury, that does not invalidate my opinion.
I didn't say anything about a silver spoon or luxury, I said you came across as someone who has never had to struggle in life. Your anecdote about teenage angst over music choices and rebelling against your parents sounds very middle class to me. Needing a friend to give you an mp3 player because mommy/daddy wouldn't get you one is not struggling. I assume your a college kid now- have you ever worked a full-time job? Are your parents contributing towards you tuition or living expenses? Living off of student aid at the moment?

The word of the poor is not worth more than the word of the rich, and vice versa. Perhaps this doesn't work in practice in the 'free-for-all' we call life but it is indeed a viewpoint I hold and try to apply when I talk to people.
I absolutely believe that all people rich or poor should be able to freely express their ideas. It is then up listeners to make up their minds as to how they value those ideas. A person's experience and perspective is helpful when you are deciding how much weight to give to someone's views. I disagreed with you and pointed out that it seems you have a blindspot that is particular to someone coming from a place of relative entitlement.

Regardless, my first initial assumption when listening to a plight of another human being is not that they are doing something wrong but that something wrong is being done to them. I would hazard a guess that this is mainly because of how my parents addressed everything when it came to me -- Bad things were all my fault, good things were because of them and their esteemed advice.
Yes, we all have our own set of life experiences that shape how we see things and I have to give you credit for having an awareness of this greater than the average 19-20 year old. But I would say that at this point in the thread Askthepizzaguy has provided enough info for more than an initial assumption.

I don't contest the fact that a lot of the time a situation can be improved by the victim or that the victim is missing some pretty obvious signals that could change the entire basis of the problem if they become aware of it.
But I got exactly that impression from you when you said he couldn't do anything about his situation except "speak out."

There's no good reason that I should default to, "Welp, you suck. Better change." when someone tells me a story about their life. There's plenty of good reasons that I should default to, "This is important. Tell me a little more about it, can you explain how what you said is true?"
Agreed, that is why I waited until page 11 of this thread to make my first post. Askthepizzaguy had already posted quite a bit and answered (or failed to answer) many important questions about his individual situtation. One thing that really stuck with me was his account about his coworker that isn't able to do basic math.

Forcing some advice down his throat before acknowledging what he's said sounds very... hm. I don't quite know the word to use here. There's a distinct disconnect in communication, I find. You hear what he's saying, but you're not listening. You instead assume that what he needs is the good-willed advice of someone who "gets it" rather than someone to listen to the plight he's gone through and share stories about how this situation is verifiable in different circles, what various options are in the business, and how the issue might be addressed directly rather than simply, "If you don't like it, leave trololololololo."
Well I did acknowledge and agree with what he said:
cav scout said:
Askthepizzaguy:

I delivered pizza for a national chain for several years when I was in college so I know what you are talking about. I also agree that the minimum wage should be applied equally to all jobs without exceptions for agricultural workers, servers, delivery drivers etc.

Here is the thing though- I fear you have fallen into the trap of working longterm at a pizza joint. Even if you make store manager one day you won't ever earn enough for more than a two-bedroom apartment life.

You give alot of excuses why you are still there. But the reality is that nothing will change for you unless step out of your comfort zone and make it happen.

If you need support, encouragement or a roadmap on how to get where you want to be there are posters here that can help.

It may indeed be true that Pizzaguy is in this situation because of a failure on his part. That's not my place to decide unless he makes it clear that it is. You said yourself that he has ambition and that he's gone to college yet you are still insistent that throughout it all he's doing something wrong because clearly someone "doing it right" wouldn't be in his position. It's a little insulting to his character because it implies that what he's currently doing with his life is beneath him in your opinion
Based on everything that Askthepizza guy has said (and the questions from others that he has ignored) I would say that he has made it clear that he is in his current situation based on his own choices.

I won't begrudge a man if he chooses to be a philosopher/pizza delivery dude. There is no binding roadmap for life that says that happiness and fulfillment only comes from material sucess. But I got the distinct impression based on his own words that Askthepizzaguy is going down a path that will leave him unfulfilled. So I agreed with him that not getting paid minimum wage is a raw deal and then gave him some advice based on my own personal experience in the pizza delivery world.

Pizza delivery can be a super fun job for the right people and he brought up an issue that showcased how the employee situation of the industry was worsening. The employees are the victims because there is nothing they can do about it except try and find a pizza company that doesn't bend their employees over the table or simply change professions completely (hint: this isn't good advice)...
Hint: pizza delivery guy isn't a profession, it's a wage paying job. And as this industry changes Askthepizzasguy's position is going to get even less tenable going forward. So telling him to make a change now is good advice. Your advice to him is to just stay where he is at and... complain?

And seriously, why can't you give people credit for the potential to have mobility in employment/life? Why are you saying his only choices are to 1.) work for another pizza chain or 2.) "change professions completely (bad advice, he totallly can't manage this!)? Is it so crazy to envision Askthepizzaguy running his own independent pizza restaurant one day for example?

Oh, and when you say that "Pizza delivery can be a super fun job for the right people" you make it sound like the "right people" are just those poor hapless souls who cannot/should not ever aspire for more in life.

To me, it's more important that the issue is directly addressed rather than call into question the character of the victim. You might be taking 'victim' to mean someone who is just a helpless soul but in this situation it means the receiving end of a negative act...
I did in fact commiserate with his position and agree that he should be paid minimum wage. I then offered him the advice to break out of the whole pizza delivering paradigm which was an attempt to address a more root problem in his personal situation. You are one that described Askthepizzaguy as a victim and helpless in the same post.

Correct-o. I had/have an awesome combination of a narcissistic father and mother. The only type of mentoring I ever got was that I should be a slave to the will of my parents and anything else is a direct affront to how life should really be. As far as I can tell, that isn't a silver spoon being placed in my mouth, but I could obviously be a bit of a narcissist myself and think I hold no evil inside this noggin of mine.
That's a shame a perhaps one of the reasons why the idea that people can actively change their situations isn't intuitive to you.
 
Well it wasn't my goal to attack you personally.

Your comments came across with that flavor of intellectual elitistism that dismisses the proletariat to their fate while claiming to be their savior.

I didn't say anything about a silver spoon or luxury, I said you came across as someone who has never had to struggle in life. Your anecdote about teenage angst over music choices and rebelling against your parents sounds very middle class to me. Needing a friend to give you an mp3 player because mommy/daddy wouldn't get you one is not struggling. I assume your a college kid now- have you ever worked a full-time job? Are your parents contributing towards you tuition or living expenses? Living off of student aid at the moment?

I disagreed with you and pointed out that it seems you have a blindspot that is particular to someone coming from a place of relative entitlement.

Oh, and when you say that "Pizza delivery can be a super fun job for the right people" you make it sound like the "right people" are just those poor hapless souls who cannot/should not ever aspire for more in life.

That's a shame a perhaps one of the reasons why the idea that people can actively change their situations isn't intuitive to you.

:huh:

This has crossed into personal attack territory beyond a singular comment now. I'm not entirely sure what I did to deserve that, but in any case I respect your opinion of my personality and my life, as wrong as it may be.

I'm withdrawing from the discussion not only because the debate between you and I will go nowhere fast with the present atmosphere, but also because most of what I would say involves defending my past and trying to correct a wrong perception about my character which is not particularly something I wish to spend my limited time doing. I might be around in this thread to respond to other people should they respond to me or say something I have an opinion over, but our communication in this thread will cease to be.

Have a good day, cav.
 
:huh:

This has crossed into personal attack territory beyond a singular comment now. I'm not entirely sure what I did to deserve that, but in any case I respect your opinion of my personality and my life, as wrong as it may be.

I'm withdrawing from the discussion not only because the debate between you and I will go nowhere fast with the present atmosphere, but also because most of what I would say involves defending my past and trying to correct a wrong perception about my character which is not particularly something I wish to spend my limited time doing. I might be around in this thread to respond to other people should they respond to me or say something I have an opinion over, but our communication in this thread will cease to be.

Have a good day, cav.

Well if we are going with such an overly broad definition of "personal attack" then I should protest about how you started this by personally attacking me by:

1. Accusing me of blaming the victim (this a powerful perjorative phrase that directly attacks the character of the person being accused of it).

2. Putting words into my mouth by insinuating that i'm a person who would ignorantly and uncaringly say "Learn programming and make thousands within weeks."

3. Saying that I am inviting violence and misery (only a person with an evil character would invite violence and misery).

4. Saying that Zelig is a naive person (Oops, this was Zelig that you were personally attacking here).

5. Saying that I hang negative situations over people's heads and then smirk at them while saying, "well, you should just be more like me," (someone who taunts and then smirks at someone is not a nice person- when did I do this to Askthepizzaguy?).

Does this answer your question "what did I do to deserve this?" You shouldn't show up in the kitchen, throw a right cross like you did, and then not be able to stand the heat.

Now I understand that you are withdrawing from the conversation because you can't handle criticism of your ideas, how you come across when you present them and your lack of bona fides/life experience to give them weight. But if you were fully honest you would also concede that you can't really refute what i'm saying. I guess it is easier to play the thin-skinned victim yourself though.
 
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