South Bay Kids Asked to remove American t-shirts

[bhsup]

But the US flag cannot, by definition, do that in America. The people who have problems with it are the ones crossing the line.

 

[Formaldehyde]

So the wearing of US flag clothing is the perfect excuse for children in public schools to be as obnoxious and openly bigoted as they wish? That an individual or a small group could have an "anti-Semitic Day" by merely anonymously posting notices all over the school that if you hate Jews to wear anything which has the American flag on it the next day? And the authorities have no recourse to stop it because it was a symbol which is always protected? That despite being against US flag etiquette, this right is somehow protected no matter the reason some kids are wearing it?

 

[Elrohir]

So the punishment was for not following the instructions of the principal then, right?

Technically, yes, but given that his order was unjust and probably illegal, that punishment is also unjust.

That's not too surprising given your far-right views.

Don't imply: if you want to insult me, do it openly. I'm not nearly as conservative as you think, but if you really think I'm that far-right, then say so clearly.

They weren't being punished. They were being told not to be such bigoted idiots by obviously using it as a form of incitement and provocation against a group of people who were simply celebrating their heritage one day a year. There's a bit of a difference between the two, don't you think, especially given your earlier post?

So if this were a school in Arizona that banned kids from wearing Mexican flags or the colors of the Mexican flags, and then suspended kids who refused to change when caught doing so -- you'd seriously defend the school district as not really punishing them?

Don't you think the school authorities have the right to force children to stop wearing clothing which will not purposely offend a large segment of the school population, and which could lead to violence and even death, especially on a day which is apparently so controversial to the anti-immigration conservatives?

That depends on what the clothing is -- if it says "KILL ALL THE JEWS" then sure, the school can reasonably ban that clothing, because it's liable to incite violence. The American flag is on display at government buildings all over the country and does not routinely incite violence. (There's probably one in front of this school!) If you're offended by the American flag, then that's your right -- you don't have to wear one or salute one or do anything of that nature. But saying other people should not be allowed to display it because you have some skewed perspective of what it means (That is not shared by the populace at large or the government or anyone except a small, anti-American minority) is simply stupid. If the American flag is as hateful a symbol as you say, then you should be arguing for banning it outright.

So the wearing of US flag clothing is the perfect excuse for children in public schools to be as obnoxious and openly bigoted as they wish? That an individual or a small group could have an "anti-Semitic Day" by merely anonymously posting notices all over the school that if you hate Jews to wear anything which has the American flag on it the next day? And the authorities have no recourse to stop it because it was a symbol which is always protected? That despite being against US flag etiquette, this right is somehow protected no matter the reason some kids are wearing it?

Did these kids say that they were going to have an anti-Hispanic day, where everyone who hates Hispanics would wear an American flag? Because if not, then that's a serious misrepresentation of what went on, and is utterly meaningless for the purposes of our discussion.

 

[JollyRoger]

Technically, yes, but given that his order was unjust and probably illegal, that punishment is also unjust.

Trying to tone down disruption in a non-punitive way is neither unjust nor illegal.

 

[Elrohir]

Trying to tone down disruption in a non-punitive way is neither unjust nor illegal.

We'll see how the courts rule, if this gets that far. I suspect they'll be less forgiving than you, but I could be wrong. I certainly hope not.

 

[Formaldehyde]

So if this were a school in Arizona that banned kids from wearing Mexican flags or the colors of the Mexican flags, and then suspended kids who refused to change when caught doing so -- you'd seriously defend the school district as not really punishing them?

If they were deliberately doing it on the 4th of July to piss off the whites, then yes. I think the authorities would have just as much right to stop them from doing so. But they weren't and they never do. Do they?

Did these kids say that they were going to have an anti-Hispanic day, where everyone who hates Hispanics would wear an American flag?

Yes, I think that is exactly what they did. You think this was all a giant coincidence? That these 5 jock always dress similarly just for the hell of it? That they enjoy wearing matching headbands because the chicks dig it?

Because if not, then that's a serious misrepresentation of what went on, and is utterly meaningless for the purposes of our discussion.

I guess you apparently do, even thought you admitted yourself they were likely "trolls". :lol;

 

[Traitorfish]

Did these kids say that they were going to have an anti-Hispanic day, where everyone who hates Hispanics would wear an American flag? Because if not, then that's a serious misrepresentation of what went on, and is utterly meaningless for the purposes of our discussion.

In fact, if this DeviantART forum post can be trusted, two of the kids in question were Mexican-American themselves (although I suppose that it's possible that they were merely Hispanic, and the poster assumed that they were Mexican-American).

If this is true, I'm willing to believe that the kids were simply trying to make a point, albeit in a slightly tactless manner; lumping them in with the "Border Patrol" guys seems unfair and dishonest.

That said, I stand by my early comments as to the potential wisdom of the school authorities. The two issues are not, I think, directly related.

 

[Communisto]

yeah, I was gonna say. Those kids dont look like typical white-bread dudes.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You don't think Latinos can be bigoted towards Mexican-Americans who want to celebrate their heritage instead of bowing down to the mighty American flag clothing, as they apparently do?

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't think Mexican-Americans can be bigoted towards Mexican-Americans, no.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Many white Mexicans are quite bigoted towards darker-skinned ones.

Daniel Galli - sounds Italian-American.

Austin Carvalho - perhaps Mexican-American.

Matthew Dariano - Italian-American again?

Dominic Maciel - Apparently a Portugeuse name according to someone who posted earlier, so perhaps Brazil?

Clayton Howard - WASP.

But it is really irrelevant unless you are arguing that it was a huge coincidence all 5 jocks decided to play Bobsey Twins on Cinco de Mayo.

 

[Maeztu]

It is etiquette like not talking when someone is taking their shot when playing golf. Or not speaking with your mouth full. Or not deliberately offending various minorities when they are celebrating their heritage.

The problem here is that the 5 de mayo is a celebration of a victory of the Mexicans against the french, mostly celebrated on the northern side of rio Grande, as in Mexico actually nobody cares about the victory or the celebration in the USA.

 

[Communisto]

Many white Mexicans are quite bigoted towards darker-skinned ones.

Daniel Galli - sounds Italian-American.

Austin Carvalho - perhaps Mexican-American but looks very white.

Matthew Dariano - Italian-American again?

Dominic Maciel - Apparently a Portugeuse name according to someone who posted earlier, so perhaps Brazil?

Clayton Howard - WASP.

Are you getting close to solving the mystery of the offended minority?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The problem here is that the 5 de mayo is a celebration of a victory of the Mexicans against the french, mostly celebrated on the northern side of rio Grande, as in Mexico actually nobody cares about the victory or the celebration in the USA.

That is no problem at all because the day is obviously used to celebrate their heritage, which is why it is so offensive to so many Americans. Isn't it?

 

[Elrohir]

If they were deliberately doing it on the 4th of July to piss off the whites, then yes. But they aren't and they never do.

So much for your hypothetical.

I very, very much doubt that you would.

Yes, I think that is exactly what they did. You think this was all a giant coincidence? That these 5 jock always dress similarly just for the hell of it? That they enjoy wearing matching headbands because the chicks dig it?

I have very little doubt that this was planned beforehand. But it's a big leap from "hey guys, let's wear American flags to school on Wednesday!" to "Hey, EVERYONE WHO HATES JEWS WEAR RED WHITE AND BLUE!!" (I was going to say Hispanics, but you decided to Godwin it up by bringing Jews into something totally non-Jew related, so I'll let it stand -- just capitalized for comedic effect) If you really think it's the latter (As you've said) then you need to prove it. Otherwise, you just look silly.

I guess you apparently do, even thought you admitted yourself they were likely "trolls". :lol;

Trolls =/= racist haters who should be deprived of their civil rights. I guess it may have been a bit much to ask you to understand the difference; my bad.



I'm curious, though: just a few days ago, you said that ""You could say the First Amendment protects your right to be a complete and total ass," and followed it up with a quote stating that "To understand free speech means freedom to speak what others do not like and even cannot stand to hear? ... Tolerating what you like is hardly a major achievement. Hitler tolerated what he liked. So did Stalin. Idi Amin did too. So did Genghis Khan, the Shah, and Henry Kissinger. Free speech only becomes an issue when someone says what others don't want to hear. Michael Albert." So -- does this much vaunted freedom of speech only apply to those outside of schools?

I find it hilarious that you think the First Amendment protects the Westboro Baptist Church, and the rights of the the Klan to protest, but not the right to wear an American flag t-shirt to school if the school administrator doesn't like it. Quite sad, but also, hilarious.

 

[Traitorfish]

Many white Mexicans are quite bigoted towards darker-skinned ones.

That's not really the same thing, though, is it? That's like saying Londoners are bigoted against Northerners; at no point is a "anti-English bias" evident.

Daniel Galli - sounds Italian-American.

Austin Carvalho - perhaps Mexican-American but looks very white.

Matthew Dariano - Italian-American again?

Dominic Maciel - Apparently a Portugeuse name according to someone who posted earlier, so perhaps Brazil?

Clayton Howard - WASP.

Dominic Maciel is noted as being Mexican-American in the article linked in the OP, and if you are willing to concede that at least one of the other students is probably Mexican-American (what does being "very white" have to do with anything?), I really don't know what your point is. Certainly, the suggestion that two of them are Italian-America, and so implicitly of a Roman Catholic background themselves makes it seem less likely that they would be "bigots".

 

[Maeztu]

That is no problem at all because the day is obviously used to celebrate their heritage, which is why it is so offensive to so many Americans. Isn't it?

I don't understand why a victory of the Mexicans over the french is offensive to many Americans.

BTW, last time I checked, Mexicans are also americans.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I very, very much doubt that you would.

Attacking the poster instead of addressing the issues? Gee, what a surprise.

I have very little doubt that this was planned beforehand.

There you go. If it was planned beforehand, they obviously did it for a reason. Now didn't they?

IOtherwise, you just look silly.

Personal attack #2. Bravo!

Trolls =/= racist haters who should be deprived of their civil rights. I guess it may have been a bit much to ask you to understand the difference; my bad.

Children wearing redneck American flag apparel to deliberately incite and harass others in a public school obviously has nothing to do with "civil rights".

'm curious, though: just a few days ago, you said that ""You could say the First Amendment protects your right to be a complete and total ass," and followed it up with a quote stating that "To understand free speech means freedom to speak what others do not like and even cannot stand to hear? ... Tolerating what you like is hardly a major achievement. Hitler tolerated what he liked. So did Stalin. Idi Amin did too. So did Genghis Khan, the Shah, and Henry Kissinger. Free speech only becomes an issue when someone says what others don't want to hear. Michael Albert." So -- does this much vaunted freedom of speech only apply to those outside of schools?

That's right. As I said way back on page 2 or so, if they were adults in the real world there wouldn't be any issue. Of course, they have the right to make complete fools of themslves. But children in a public school are obviously a quite diferent story.

Regading the last two, "I guess it may have been a bit much to ask you to understand the difference."

Quite sad, but also, hilarious.

Personal attack #3 in a single thread! Bravo!

 

[Traitorfish]

Given that your entire argument is a series of unfounded personal attacks against the five students in question, I wouldn't get too high and mighty about that sort of thing, Formaldehyde.

 

[Formaldehyde]

That's not really the same thing, though, is it? That's like saying Londoners are bigoted against Northerners; at no point is a "anti-English bias" evident.

I think you are mssing the forest for the trees here. This wasn't the only demostration against Cinco de Mayo Day which occured. Are you going to try to ratlionize away the 20 students who wore the "Border Patrol" T-shirts at the other school as well? Or even the animosity about Mexican-Americans celebrating their heritgae on this day which was quite evident in this forum?

In case you haven't noticed with all the recent threads on the topic of immigration (and even the poor schmuck who got stomped by the cops in Seattle), there is a great deal of hostility and animosity in the US right now directed at Mexican-Americans.

HOUSTON - June 29, 2007 - Many individuals in the United States deny the current systematic persecution of undocumented Mexican migrants. This is just as incredulous as denying that the persecution against Gypsies, Poles, Slavs, Jews and other people ever occurred as carried out by the Nazis during the 1930’s through the mid 1940’s or that the persecution and genocide of indigenous Native Americans never occurred. The verbal hate mongering against Mexican undocumented immigrants is such a regularly widespread and venomous phenomenon that it has evolved into a national psychosis. A psychosis is defined as a defective condition characterized by a loss of contact from reality. It is a serious problem for any infected individual as it is for an infected nation. This was witnessed this past spring when Fox News host of the O’Reilly Factor, Bill O’Reilly, verbally attacked Geraldo Rivera while discussing a drunken driving case that O’Reilley wanted to turn into an anti undocumented (Mexican) immigrant bashing incident. It was clear that O’Reilly was totally out of control as he “foamed at the mouth” with extreme hatred and rage over the presence of undocumented Mexican residents. Another example is the U.S. Senate’s failure to pass an immigration reform bill. Rather than negotiate in good faith a significant number of U.S. Senators, mostly from the Republican Party, could not get themselves to support important provisions on behalf of Mexican undocumented immigrants although most reputable studies point out the net-positive benefits of their presence as workers and as consumers.

These acts of intimidation and violence are occurring even though 85% of eminent U.S. economists agree that the presence of undocumented Mexican workers in the country is not having a net-negative effect on U.S. society. 74% of these economists indicated that undocumented workers were having a net positive effect in the United States. 11% felt that they had no effect either way. In fact, the vast majority of reputable research in this area comes to this conclusion (see Beyond Smoke and Mirrors: Mexican Immigration in an Era of Economic Integration by Massey, Durand, and Malone). Yet, xenophobic talk radio hosts fail to provide this type of information when bashing undocumented migrants on their radio programs. These hosts and the radio stations that hire them are outside the parameters of what our society should allow on the airwaves. Providing one’s opinion is one thing but to systematically indulge in hate mongering day in and day out against undocumented residents as they do is tantamount to shouting “fire” in a crowded theater when none exists. This practice guarantees that more Mexican undocumented residents (and others that may appear to be of Mexican descent including U.S. citizens) are going to be needlessly hurt, trampled, and killed and this must be stopped by the corporate media giants that allow this to happen. Ironically, these very same media giants, such as Clear Channel, also own and operate media outlets that cater specifically to Mexican immigrants knowing very well that many are undocumented and that they can make substantial amounts of money in advertising dollars.

Link to video.

Dominic Maciel is noted as being Mexican-American in the article linked in the OP....

I see no notice of that in the OP article. Care to point it out?

and if you are willing to concede that at least one of the other students is probably Mexican-American (what does being "very white" have to do with anything?), I really don't know what your point is. Certainly, the suggestion that two of them are Italian-America, and so implicitly of a Roman Catholic background themselves makes it seem less likely that they would be "bigots".

You apparently don't know much about American bigotry. Shane recently pointed this out. The US has a rich and proud history of each succeeding large immingrant group discriminating against the next one. I was surprised to find there is even a word coined to describe this phenomonon: nativism.

I would also not be terribly surprised if some Mexican-Americans whose families have been here for generations now even find it offensive to celebrate their heritage. After all, we are all "immigrants" except for the rare few who are mainly American Indian. But how quickly most people forget their own roots...

Given that your entire argument is a series of unfounded personal attacks against the five students in question, I wouldn't get too high and mighty about that sort of thing, Formaldehyde.

"Unfounded personal attacks?" Against these rabble rousers who obviously quite intentionally all dressed up in matching bandanas to try to piss off other students?

Besides, it is quite one thing to supposedly engage in a "personal attack" regarding people not in this forum and those who actually are. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous at best.