South Bay Kids Asked to remove American t-shirts

The alleged concern was that the T-shirts would lead to fights on campus.
fearing violence from Hispanic students, the adminstrators solve the crisis by banishing the “offensive” items, rather than warning students that any violence will be severely punished. In other words, the racist administrators insultingly assumed that their Hispanic students would erupt in violence at the sight of an American flag, and the only way to prevent this is to cower at the presumptive violence and preemptively cave in to the mob’s demands that American flags be banned from campus.

http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2010...-for-wearing-american-flags-on-cinco-de-mayo/
 
Why don't you try discussing the issues instead of incessantly engaging in personal attacks?
Because Elrohir already said everything there is to say about "the issues".Although I hope he won't object when I repeat this again:
To be perfectly honest, if you feel "incited" or "harassed" because someone wears a shirt with an American flag on it in an American school, then that's your problem. It's not something that a reasonable person in America would be upset over, and I don't think everyone else should have to cater to you to make you feel comfortable. Now, if the guys wearing the shirt did stuff that actually was insulting or harassing -- say, running around yelling about how Mexico sucks and everyone from Mexico should go home -- then you should have just cause to discipline them. But because they were acting badly and disruptively, not because they're wearing an American flag.

But all right, I'll present a straight question right on topic: Don't you think that if a simple display of US flag is incendiary towards certain minorities, then it is in fact these minorities who create the problem by expressing hatred that should not be tolerated?
I fully accept that display of certain flags at certain dates can rightfully be considered incendiary. E.g. Nazi flag on Holocaust Day. Union Jack in Ireland on Easter. Serbian flag in Kosovo....probably any day. US flag could be considered bad taste if we were speaking about e.g. Cherokee remembering the Trail of Tears.
But what legitimate reason do Mexican Americans have to hate the flag of the country they live in? Displayed on a holiday meant to commemorate a victory in a battle in a war where both countries were on the same side (and have, afaik, been friendly neighbors ever since)?
 
But what legitimate reason do Mexican Americans have to hate the flag of the country they live in? Displayed on a holiday meant to commemorate a victory in a battle in a war where both countries were on the same side (and have, afaik, been friendly neighbors ever since)?

I'd say probably because of the bill that got passed a few weeks ago in Arizona. Racial tensions are high, especially in this neck o' the woods.
 
That bill has nothing to do with race. It has to do with nationality. Try to keep things in perspective.
 
That bill has nothing to do with race. It has to do with nationality. Try to keep things in perspective.
He never said that it did, merely that it has exacerbated existing inter-ethnic tensions, which is quite probably true. "Racially" accurate or otherwise, the European American population of the US tends to divide along Hispanic-American and non-Hispanic European-American lines before nationality (or ancestral nationality) is explicitly taken into account.
 
Well Section 8 Part D of the Flag Rules & Regulations state that you shouldn't wear the flag as clothing.

They aren't wearing actual US flags (i.e. ones that are actually suitable for use at a flag pole).
 
I love how so many posters here are refering to what these kids did as "trolling". You guys need to get off internet forums once in a while as see the light of day.
 
Pretty much my sentiments on this one. If the kids were trying to make a statement, the school just helped them 100x over by making a huge deal out of it and it's a pretty plain violation of their 1st am. rights to make them change their clothes due to something so innocuous. Schools have a lot of leeway but not that much leeway.

I think they're pretty clearly trolling. Earlier in the day talking to kids on facebook, it kind of looked like they might not have realized it, but it seems they were definitely making a statement.
If you want to look at it like these are dumb jocks, then you can argue that they're simply trolling another segment of the student body (which happens every day, in every class). If you want to look at it like they are people making a political statement about immigration, then as a free speech issue, I think they should be allowed to wear these shirts.

That said, while most of us think the school shouldn't have done this, they're legally within their rights. Ironically, I'd think the Bong Hits for Jesus case, which so many conservatives agreed with, makes it pretty clear (esp. if the administrators had a reasonable expectation it could lead to violence) that the school is within its legal rights.

So, I'd say an over-reaction by the school, but one they're legally entitled to make.

And yes, another irony is that the wearing of US flags as clothing is an affront to true patriots.
 
Whether or not the kids were wearing the t-shirts innocuously, or were trying to prove a rasist point by doing so, the actions taken by the administrators were in the wrong.
 
The way I see it is even if dumb jocks want to troll others IRL, they may inadvertently still be making a "political" statement. Even if we all think it's a stupid and possibly intended to be offensive, it's a school restricting speech based on content that can very easily be called "political." That coupled with the fact that their "statement" is basically wearing a flag--which is by any objective standard not patently offensive or prone to causing a disturbance, such as a Nazi flag or even a confederate flag.

Morse v. Frederick(the Bong Hits Case) made a narrow ruling in the universe of school speech, in my opinion, by upholding a school's right to limit speech based on legitimate "pedagogical concerns" such as drug use. The Court in Morse was careful to not explicitly overrule Tinker as much as to just say that school's can restrict any speech that could be seen as promoting drugs, since obviously we don't want kids doing drugs in school. Here is a quote from Morse:

The "special characteristics of the school environment," Tinker, 393 U.S., at 506, 89 S. Ct. 733, 21 L. Ed. 2d 731, and the governmental interest in stopping student drug abuse--reflected in the policies of Congress and myriad school boards, including JDHS--allow schools to restrict student expression that they reasonably regard as promoting illegal drug use. Tinker warned that schools may not prohibit student speech because of "undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance" or "a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint." Id., at 508, 509, 89 S. Ct. 733, 21 L. Ed. 2d 731. The danger here is far more serious and palpable. The particular concern to prevent student drug abuse at issue here, embodied in established school policy, App. 92-95; App. to Pet. [*409] for Cert. 53a, extends well beyond an abstract desire to avoid controversy.

In the next paragraph the Court is careful not to extend this rule. They outlines the Court's current understanding of Fraser, another important and seminal case on 1st amendment rights in school. Fraser dealt with a "lewd" student speech that was censored by the school, and upheld:

Petitioners urge us to adopt the broader rule that Frederick's speech is proscribable because it is plainly "offensive" as that term is used in Fraser. See Reply Brief for Petitioners 14-15. We think this stretches Fraser too far; that case should not be read to encompass any speech that could fit under some definition of "offensive." After all, much political and religious speech might be perceived as offensive to some. The concern here is not that Frederick's speech was offensive, but that it was reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use.

Drawing on the sort of "triumvirate" of cases we have on school speech: Tinker, Fraser, and Morse, the basic jurisprudence is: if it's clearly political speech we use the Tinker test and look for a chance of substantial disruption, because political speech is "at the core of what the First Amendment is designed to protect."(According to Roberts,and I agree with that sentiment). If it's not political speech, we use the Morse/Fraser tests; I think Tinker is the applicable test here, barring some new facts coming to light I don't know about, and the school in Santa Cruz needs to really show some sort of evidence of a major disruption, and even then we're still in unusual territory because of the nature of the speech here, the American Flag, is so unusual (from a disturbance causing perspective.)

I think that even a stupid political statement is a political statement. Mere offensiveness does not rise to the level of discipline and censorship, and even though schools should have wide leeway to maintain order, we also have to think about the values we are instilling in our students for when they grow up. Should we be censoring the American flag in school? Should nationalism be offending people? Should your own or my own personal displeasure with a political viewpoint mean it can be censored? No.

Let me be clear, I think these kids may have intended to get a rise out of others and been totally motivated by stupid jingoism and outright bullying. I can understand personally being offended by people shoving the flag in my face on a day celebrating my heritage (I'm not Mexican, speaking hypothetically) because I get the point they're trying to make. But I wouldn't want their speech censored or to have them disciplined for it. If all they actually, physically did was walk into school wearing an American flag, I would be pretty outraged if we could allow a school to discipline them for that. My opinion.
 
But the violence would have been caused by those who didn't like the shirts. So if the school was going to pre-emptively send anyone home, it should have been any pecker head who is so offended by the US flag (in America) that they would start a fight over it. If that was 90% of the school, so be it.
 
The substantial disruption element is analyzed as to the speech of the student and not of those who may be offended by it.

From Tinker:

A student's rights, therefore, do not embrace merely the classroom hours. When he is in the cafeteria, or on the playing field, or on [*513] the campus during the authorized hours, he may express his opinions, even on controversial subjects like the conflict in Vietnam, if he does so without "materially and substantially interfer[ing] with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school" and without colliding with the rights of others. Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749. But conduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason -- whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior -- materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech. Cf. Blackwell v. Issaquena County Board of Education, 363 F.2d 749 (C. A. 5th Cir. 1966).

If the guys are running around yelling in everyone's face USA #1 (and they may have been, I don't know) then yeah you have a point, but if the kids are merely wearing a shirt I fail to see how that is in any way an invasion of the rights of others, or in any objective measure capable of materially disrupting classwork or promoting substantial disorder.
 
I think the substantial disruption is that the school administrators assumed or reasonably feared (we can argue if this was a reasonable assumption) that wearing these clothes on this particular day would lead to violence, etc...
Indeed. Just look at the reaction it has caused from the tea partyers alone, much less the rest of the conservatives. This is ciearly a sensitive subject. Just look at all the comments in this forum from conservatives about why Mexican-Americans would want to celebrate their heritage on Cinco de Mayo in the first place before this even took place.

Besides, at least two of jocks showed up wearing American flag bandanas, which are specifically prohibited by the school dress code that Owen posted in the other thread. It was apparently then that the administrators noticed they were all dressed up in redneck flag apparel. It they had not been specifically violating the rules by wearing the bandanas, it may very well have gone unnoticed.
 
Ill, are we quibbling over side issues here? I guess my point is that, like it or not (I don't) the school has a legal right, be it from Bong Hits or whatever or just their civic charter, to do what they did, don't they?

Or is that in debate? Even if its clear the school is legally in the right, I'm sure there'll be a legal "debate" as I fully expect the 5 offended kids' parents to smell the money blood in the water and sue.
 
Ill, are we quibbling over side issues here? I guess my point is that, like it or not (I don't) the school has a legal right, be it from Bong Hits or whatever or just their civic charter, to do what they did, don't they?

Or is that in debate? Even if its clear the school is legally in the right, I'm sure there'll be a legal "debate" as I fully expect the 5 offended kids' parents to smell the money blood in the water and sue.

We are quibbling over the main issue: I do not think it's clear the school had the right to do that, at all. It's important to distinguish the Bong Hits case from this case because I think they are different. Bong Hits' precedent does not condone the conduct of the school in this case, I think.

I doubt the school charter says US flags are banned in school, and if the charter has language mirroring the Tinker standard, which I am sure they do, they applied it inappropriately here. Lawerly caveat: based on what I know so far.
 
If the guys are running around yelling in everyone's face USA #1 (and they may have been, I don't know) then yeah you have a point, but if the kids are merely wearing a shirt I fail to see how that is in any way an invasion of the rights of others, or in any objective measure capable of materially disrupting classwork or promoting substantial disorder.
I thinks the kids actions were somewhere between these two extremes, thus giving the administrators the discretion to take (admittedly wrongheaded) action.
 
I think the substantial disruption is that the school administrators assumed or reasonably feared (we can argue if this was a reasonable assumption) that wearing these clothes on this particular day would lead to violence, etc...

What VRWCAgent said. We have to look at who is to blame for the disruption. Otherwise you might as well have kept schools seggregated because integration would lead to some episodes of "disruption". In this case, if there was disruption, the guilty party would be the morons offended by the flag of their own country.
 
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