1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Styles of NESing

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by Chandrasekhar, Sep 1, 2008.

?

After taking the quiz, where do you fall on the chart?

  1. Centrist

    24.7%
  2. Storyist

    28.1%
  3. Simulationist

    30.3%
  4. Arcader

    10.1%
  5. Boardgamer

    6.7%
  1. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    This is a small project I've felt compelled to work on, regarding the differences in perspective between NESers on how a NES should be run. There are lots of odd variations on the basic NES concept that can be seen around the forum - games with mathematically driven, calculated stats; games that run like some complex board game, rather like CIV itself; games where orders don't matter at all, and stories drive the plot; and some say that my own Pre-ChaNES might as well be a NES of its own, despite its relatively low temporal resolution and detail compared to what I plan to include later.

    After some discussion with other NESers on what separates these viewpoints from each other, I've come to the opinion that the differences in preferred NESing styles can be represented on a square graphic, similar to a political compass, and generalized into two main axes - the degree of freedom, or power, given to players in choosing what their nation does, and the degree of detail, or "realism," that the mod incorporates into the game's setting and mechanics. This can be charted as in the following graphic (courtesy of Symphony D.):


    For use with this diagram, I've made a short quiz which can be used to determine where you'd be plotted on it. It's far from perfect, but it should get the gist across. Note your answers to the following questions:
    Spoiler :
    1: Which NES would you be more likely to join?
    (a) One with detailed updates, but very limited stats.
    (b) One with detailed stats, but very short updates.​

    2: If a player spends significant funds on a plan that, in real life, couldn't be accomplished just by spending a lot on it, how should the mod respond?
    (a) Waste the spending, or bank it for next turn
    (b) Have the plan be carried out​

    3: If two players give orders that lead to conflict, how should a mod resolve the situation?
    (a) In favor of the nation with an in-game advantage.
    (b) In favor of the player that sent the better orderset.​

    4: What is the function of an update?
    (a) To describe what events have happened since the previous turn.
    (b) To describe how the situation in this turn is different from the previous one.​

    5: Should the majority of player actions be categorized into defined categories with pre-determined costs?
    (a) Yes
    (b) No​

    6: If a player spends on researching a technology that wasn't discovered until later in our time line, how should the mod respond?
    (a) Award the player research in related fields
    (b) Award the player the technology he was spending on​

    7: Is it more important that games be consistently updated in a timely fashion, or consistently informative of minute details?
    (a) Timely updates are more important
    (b) Consistently reported details are more important​

    8: What's more important when choosing the setting of a NES?
    (a) An interesting situation.
    (b) A believable situation.​

    9: If a player of a democratic government implements unpopular policies, what should the penalty be?
    (a) The action should be vetoed by the NPC legislature
    (b) The action should be carried out, possibly with a penalty to the confidence/popularity stat​

    10: Should a player be able to enact policies that, realistically, would be too extreme for a single ruler to implement?
    (a) Yes
    (b) No​
    And here is an "answer key," for use with these questions. Starting from the middle of the graph, this key shows which direction you should move for each question, along the diagonal axis indicated.
    Spoiler :
    1: (a) +1 Detail, (b) -1 Detail
    2: (b) +1 Freedom, (a) -1 Freedom
    3: (a) +1 Detail, (b) -1 Detail
    4: (a) +1 Detail, (b) -1 Detail
    5: (b) +1 Freedom, (a) -1 Freedom
    6: (b) +1 Freedom, (a) -1 Freedom
    7: (b) +1 Detail, (a) -1 Detail
    8: (b) +1 Detail, (a) -1 Detail
    9: (b) +1 Freedom, (a) -1 Freedom
    10: (a) +1 Freedom, (b) -1 Freedom
    Feel free to post your own answers here, vote in the poll, and discuss the quiz and the concept behind it. For the record, my own answers are (aaaabababb), putting me in the "Simulationist" corner.
     
  2. Abaddon

    Abaddon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    31,187
    Location:
    NES/FG/SF Activity:Arguing the toss
    Initially I am annoyed you only give two options to questions an I feel neither option is how I feel!



    It tells me I am a Storyist.. and that is completely wrong!
     
  3. Yui108

    Yui108 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    2,590
    Location:
    Chicago
    Right leaning centrist here.
     
  4. Abaddon

    Abaddon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    31,187
    Location:
    NES/FG/SF Activity:Arguing the toss
    1: Which NES would you be more likely to join?

    (a) One with detailed updates, but very limited stats.
    (b) One with detailed stats, but very short updates.
    (c) Short updates and stats please!

    2: If a player spends significant funds on a plan that, in real life, couldn't be accomplished just by spending a lot on it, how should the mod respond?

    (a) Waste the spending, or bank it for next turn
    (b) Have the plan be carried out
    (c) Re-examine their rule set which allows for significant funds to be spent on a project within one turn.

    [I mean seriously, a project is meant to take several turns, one shouldn't be trying to invest so heavily upon its beginnings, especially if you have not confirmed it with the mod.


    3: If two players give orders that lead to conflict, how should a mod resolve the situation?

    (a) In favor of the nation with an in-game advantage.
    (b) In favor of the player that sent the better orderset.
    (c) Value both

    [In game advantage should be weighed more, but orders should be relevant]


    4: What is the function of an update?

    (a) To describe what events have happened since the previous turn.
    (b) To describe how the situation in this turn is different from the previous one.

    5: Should the majority of player actions be categorized into defined categories with pre-determined costs?

    (a) Yes
    (b) No

    6: If a player spends on researching a technology that wasn't discovered until later in our time line, how should the mod respond?

    (a) Award the player research in related fields
    (b) Award the player the technology he was spending on
    (c) Re-examine their rule set which allows for technology to be researched in an inprobably way

    [If the player is researching something written within the rules, and can "legally" research that tech, good for him. Your rules should not allow it.


    7: Is it more important that games be consistently updated in a timely fashion, or consistently informative of minute details?

    (a) Timely updates are more important
    (b) Consistently reported details are more important

    8: What's more important when choosing the setting of a NES?

    (a) An interesting situation.
    (b) A believable situation.

    9: If a player of a democratic government implements unpopular policies, what should the penalty be?

    (a) The action should be vetoed by the NPC legislature
    (b) The action should be carried out, possibly with a penalty to the confidence/popularity stat

    10: Should a player be able to enact policies that, realistically, would be too extreme for a single ruler to implement?

    (a) Yes
    (b) No

    don't know what this means
     
  5. Azale

    Azale Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Messages:
    18,723
    Location:
    Texas
    Right leaning centrist, I stepped into and out of the Simulationist corner twice :p
     
  6. BananaLee

    BananaLee Fruity Penguin

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    3,796
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    a
    a
    a
    a
    b
    a
    a
    a
    b
    b

    D +1
    F -1

    Pretty damned centrist.
     
  7. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    32,610
    Location:
    Moscow
    A firm Simulationist I am.
     
  8. Oruc

    Oruc Reactionary

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2002
    Messages:
    8,635
    Location:
    It's like I'm really in Revleft
    Nope!
     
  9. Vertinari118

    Vertinari118 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,067
    Location:
    An island near to Europe
    I am a Centrist with Simulationist leanings and like Azale dipped in and out a few times of the Simulationist corner. Also I did not answer a couple of quesions because like Abby I did not like the answers provided. Maybe you could add one or two answers more to each quesion?
     
  10. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    32,610
    Location:
    Moscow
    Abaddon: this test is more of a "choose the best answer", not a "choose the answer that is always right in every circumstance" one. It's asking you to list preferences.
    We in DipNES and those in RiskNES are missing you. :p
    Believe it or not, players often do not read the rules. Hence this may not be a problem of the ruleset, it may be a problem with the player failing to care sufficiently (or being too lazy or whatever) to check to make sure that he can do that. That doesn't change the fact that the situation has arisen.

    In addition, like I said before, this is a 'choose the best answer'. You can't bloody well map somebody's position with a short quiz by listing all of the possible answers a person could give, many of which are not conducive to putting somebody down on a plot and labeling them.
    Most NESers also do not ask questions of the mod on a regular basis either.
    Choose the best answer. In your case this would be in game advantage.
    If your 'ideal rules' do not allow a situation but a player puts it in his orders anyway, what is your response as mod? :rolleyes:
    Let's say you are playing as the President of the United States. You have a good deal of influence in the Senate and the House, but you can't just pass whatever legislation you want. You require the support of members of those legislative groups to first propose a bill and then get it through both House and Senate to your desk where you can approve it. Players can't just make up whatever laws they want and have them automatically come into force of law by fiat in that position.

    Similarly, let's say you, as the ruler of Austria, want to raise troops from your vassals the Hungarians in order to fight a war with the Prussians and French who are invading you. You can't just order the Hungarians to give you the men, and you can't just spend the money on raising and arming the troops without being permitted to do so by your vassals. It follows that you must appeal to their interests somehow in your orders. In OTL, this was done by the relevant monarch making a personal, impassioned appeal to the assembly and emphasizing her legal rights, which had a good deal of pull with many people back in the days before kings were guillotined and emperors were executed by firing squad. You would have to make your vassals, over whom you do not have total control, see your side of the issue in order to do anything.

    Alternatively, you can wave your hand and just say "sure what the hell".
    More men, better troops, better leaders, terrain advantage, better supply situation, that sort of thing.
     
  11. Dreadnought

    Dreadnought Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    6,896
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    I am a storyist. Cool!
     
  12. Oruc

    Oruc Reactionary

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2002
    Messages:
    8,635
    Location:
    It's like I'm really in Revleft
    Nope!
     
  13. bestshot9

    bestshot9 Monkey Sharpshooter

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,110
    Location:
    600m Away
    I'm a centrist, like some simulation but don't like it to be to the point where its just not fun and you can't get anything done. Also, stories are nice.
     
  14. Ninja Dude

    Ninja Dude Sorry, I wasn't listening...

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    3,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I'm just barely a storyist. It took forever for me to leave the Centrists area.
     
  15. LightFang

    LightFang "I'm the hero!"

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,976
    Location:
    USA
    Detail
    III
    Freedom
    -III

    This makes me...a simulationist? Funny...I think my ideals and my ability to carry them out have a significant gap.

    Darn, I wanted to be a trendy centrist too. I heard that fence-sitting is all the rage.

    Answers here, spoilered for your convenience.

    Spoiler :
    1: Which NES would you be more likely to join?

    (a) One with detailed updates, but very limited stats.
    (b) One with detailed stats, but very short updates.

    2: If a player spends significant funds on a plan that, in real life, couldn't be accomplished just by spending a lot on it, how should the mod respond?

    (a) Waste the spending, or bank it for next turn
    (b) Have the plan be carried out

    3: If two players give orders that lead to conflict, how should a mod resolve the situation?

    (a) In favor of the nation with an in-game advantage.
    (b) In favor of the player that sent the better orderset.

    4: What is the function of an update?

    (a) To describe what events have happened since the previous turn.
    (b) To describe how the situation in this turn is different from the previous one.

    5: Should the majority of player actions be categorized into defined categories with pre-determined costs?

    (a) Yes
    (b) No

    6: If a player spends on researching a technology that wasn't discovered until later in our time line, how should the mod respond?

    (a) Award the player research in related fields
    (b) Award the player the technology he was spending on

    7: Is it more important that games be consistently updated in a timely fashion, or consistently informative of minute details?

    (a) Timely updates are more important
    (b) Consistently reported details are more important

    8: What's more important when choosing the setting of a NES?

    (a) An interesting situation.
    (b) A believable situation.

    9: If a player of a democratic government implements unpopular policies, what should the penalty be?

    (a) The action should be vetoed by the NPC legislature
    (b) The action should be carried out, possibly with a penalty to the confidence/popularity stat

    10: Should a player be able to enact policies that, realistically, would be too extreme for a single ruler to implement?

    (a) Yes
    (b) No


    Notes:

    I say bank it at first, and then if this sort of thing becomes a problem then start having the money be wasted with accompanying drops in stats such as popularity and confidence and stuff.

    But of course order quality is important too...but I realize that this is not intended to be a rule to be followed dogmatically.

    I don't get the point of this question...
     
  16. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Firstly, this.
    I mean not just projects, here - I mean stuff like "bribing a group of government-employed scientists in a rival country to share their secrets." Say a player spends 3 EP on it. If it's possible in the first place, it shouldn't take even a single EP to pay the scientists well enough to betray their countrymen, and if it's not possible, then no amount of funding is going to change that.

    Yet at the same time, 3 EP is a substantial investment, and from a balance perspective, it's probably worth the technology that's being stolen. So, the question relates to one aspect of how "realistic" a game should be at the expense of balance.
    You just said "in game advantage should be weighed more." :cringe: Doesn't that give you your answer?
    Judging from your other answers, this should be "yes" for you. :p
    How many NESes have an explicitly defined tech tree? If you think that every NES should have one, then I think you're an (a) here.
    You might be able to design a really good, comprehensive list of everything that you can imagine a player spending EP on, but someone will always come up with an idea you didn't consider. This question is also supposed to reflect opinions on NESes where you can build or do different things in your country with explicit, defined effects, rather than customized projects that the players design (and the mods assign value to).
    Keep in mind that player freedom isn't automatically a good thing. There's a reason that games have rules in them.

    I do worry that my quiz is somewhat biased, though. Maybe we all just have more similar NESing philosophies than I had thought. Keep in mind that only answering a few of the questions is likely to land you closer to the center, though. :p
     
  17. LightFang

    LightFang "I'm the hero!"

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,976
    Location:
    USA
    Might there not be some sort of stigma against appearing too recreational and stuff? I mean, doesn't being one of those simulationists make you, like, intelligent and stuff, since you love realism? I dunno. :p
     
  18. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    It's meant to bring out your subconscious attitude by a subtle change in wording. For example, for a Storyist/Simulationist, it's not just the current situation that matters - the way that it was brought about is also vital. For a Boardgamer/Arcader, it doesn't matter how the army got into a hostile city, as long as it's there this turn. A game run by a Storyist/Simulationist might feature that city revolting to aid a counterattack if the city was a victim of a biological weapons strike or a particularly nasty backstab, but a game run by a Boardgamer/Arcader wouldn't make the distinction.
    While a Storyist loves interesting situations, however they come about, an Arcader loves matching wits and strategy against his fellow NESers, and a Boardgamer loves crafting a perfect ruleset and watching it all play out in front of him. :p I myself was a Boardgamer when I first arrived here from Forum Games - only recently have I begun sliding upwards on the game detail aspect.
     
  19. Gelion

    Gelion Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2004
    Messages:
    11,258
    Location:
    Earth Dome
    Boardgamer on the border with Centrist.
     
  20. Lord_Iggy

    Lord_Iggy Tsesk'ihe

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    24,544
    Location:
    Yukon
    I would consider myself a storyist, in your system of classification- but let's see what the quiz says. Here are my answers:

    1. A
    2. I can't answer this well, it really depends on the specific situation. If it's utterly impossible, I'll waste it, but with some result- IE, a primitive civilization trying to make a spaceship will just end up with a religious monument of vaguely similar appearance or something like that. However, if it is just around the limits of possibility, like early gunpowder or seafaring, I tend to be more generous. I suppose I'm closest to B, with some limitations.
    3. A, but ordersets naturally will affect the outcome.
    4. Both, but I lean towards A. The events create the new situation, not the other way around.
    5. B
    6. Typically A, but sometimes I choose B.
    7. A. I'm an utter hypocrite when it comes to this.
    8. A.
    9. Depends on the severity of the action, but I tend towards B.
    10. A. Yes, as the player is a figure superior to rulers, and has a great amount of in-game time on their side to act.

    1: (a) +1 Detail
    2: (b) +1 Freedom
    3: (a) +1 Detail
    4: (a) +1 Detail
    5: (b) +1 Freedom
    6: (a) -1 Freedom
    7: (a) -1 Detail
    8: (a) -1 Detail
    9: (b) +1 Freedom
    10: (a) +1 Freedom

    Thus, I'm +1 Detail, and +3 Freedom. That puts me in the Storyist area, one line up and to the right of the arcader/centrist/storist intersection.
     

Share This Page