Syria shoots down F-16

"Here, tribes refer to descendents of nomadic and semi-nomadic Bedouin populations"

Reading is essential.
If the author is using "tribe" to refer to exclusively to refer to Bedouin tribes, then what was the point of citing him? It doesn't support your characterisation of Palestine as a tribal society, either.

I'm afraid I'm missing the joke, if there is one?
Both are instances of treating two unrelated categories as a single category.
 
Another Russian transport plane crashed in Syria...
Turkey continue to advance slowly in Afrin, Kurds from other regions send fighters to help anti-Turkish resistance there. According to Americans this is already hindering their ISIS mop-up operations.
Syrian army captured almost half of Eastern Ghouta, approaching urban areas.
 
If the author is using "tribe" to refer to exclusively to refer to Bedouin tribes, then what was the point of citing him? It doesn't support your characterisation of Palestine as a tribal society, either.

Palestinians are divided into clans, not tribes, but most people just use "tribal" as a shorthand.

Both are instances of treating two unrelated categories as a single category.

You yourself tied them together by claiming that Palestinians wouldn't endorse such murderous actions if they had a functioning state, and that their lack of one is the fault of the Israelis. Heck, being under occupation has arguably saved them from the sectarian violence of Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.
 
Do you even read your posts?
 
one should really time those crashes , like 4 days after something or anything .


Spoiler :

so , how tenous it is a claim that some copyright institution in Turkey is relevant to a thread of Israel taking an active part in some Civil War on behalf of Jihadis ? No , really related . Fully , actually but that would be like really my idea only ; Turkish is so much easier in this respect with letters voiced like always the same ...

remember Orhan Gencebay ? ı think it was in this thread , with him ending some 50 years of friendship with some Leftist pal of his . Because the Goverment has to fight them Kurds and we Public have to forget the seperatists were brothers . Not mine , not ours , not even of "our" Kurds and whatever the hell this might even mean , but of the Party , of the New Turkey , of Qatar , of our future overlords . And Orhan Gencebay was a star member of a group who lent their names that this was indeed so , it was all the fault of the Republic . So, the Party removed some legal definition of "village" and disbanded some State agency and when ı check the utility bill for water , ı like totally see ı am to take some 11 Liras for the villages in addition to 23 liras for the actual water usage to the kiosk ... "What" is a thing nobody says these days ; am afraid there might be one or two who would think am a sage or something . Yes , because America thought the New Turkey might be challenged [even if ı don't know how] if it simply gave autonomy to the seperatists . So they enlarged territorial responsibility of municipalities , so as an example when some Kurdish politician was elected as the Mayor of Diyarbakır , his reach would cover the "whole" province , like the Governor assigned from Ankara ... So much fine thinking and the like . The Hülya Koçyiğit and just a few are not traitors committee was touring cities , giving speeches , TV interviews and those stars would lend their name to it ; giving autonomy but not giving it in the open . Saudis and Qataris fell on each other , everybody talks much on how 'ing useless we Turks are and yet none of them had managed to get the ball rolling and expend the evil lurking in the shadows in a controlled war in Syria , badly hurting Iran as well . Cracked the "Muslim" ranks , made the seperatists think they held the cards . To demand more ; resulting in the twin elections of 2015 . Some Kurdish member of the said committee arrested , because he naturally talks in favour of seperatists . The Party has to arrest any possible Kurdish politician , because America fails to mend the Saudi - Qatari break ; because if Donkey Party is them Dems then Obama is the one that preferred the lean and mean Doha over the ever glorious Riyadh . And while ı might really sound like a bigot , ı would try hard to give the "impression" of even handedness . A fact that votes are for sale in the East might not be the best thing to remark on here , so to speak . So the arrest and the army of Party trolls call the committee traitorous , because they have been calling any opponent as such , like since Big Bang and this hurts Gencebay's position . Because he obviously is good for the Party ... So this fight of his , attacking some loudmouth Alevi or something .


time to discuss Tevekkül ; don't know what its English is , but let's say it like involves giving your best and trusting in Allah in the end . Tie down your camel before you sleep . Not blame God when you did nothing and it wandered away while you snored the night away . Seems somewhat dishonest , that if you tie down the animal you have will have no need to pray for its safety ? Oh , what will you do if some lion comes up and eats it ? Which is actually a good thing , because that lion might eat you , too . See , Man is limited , there is an end to what we can achieve and in the end acceptance helps us to bear . This Gencebay is like one of the biggest names in "not Western" Turkish music and his contentment was legendary . Not a single scandal in newspapers , if you know what ı mean . So much that during the disturbing 70s when the inevitable transformation of the country into a market economy and whatnot created the legend . He was so relaxed because he was using drugs and the State was allowing / giving him a kilo of heroin over a fixed period of time , because without that he would go crazy . And he had to go crazy , because the whole country was a mess and people perforce had to go crazy . And he would make an album for Rebellion and Rebellion would happen . You know , he even has a parka movie . That should be a word in English , with parkas issued to American troops in Korea in 1950s , but it's some sort of a winter coat : In Turkey it would be mostly dark green , not exactly olive , with a fur section to raise to protect the neck from the wind . While like nobody carried the detachable head section . See , mostly worn by the Left . And he naturally organizes the neighbourhood when some rich construction company comes to bulldoze the place to make high rise apartments for the Rich , that kind of thing , wearing the parka whereever applicable . So , really , what right does Orhan Gencebay to have to destroy the ethos and stuff of an entire country ? What right to deny people an example of tevekkül and what not ? What right of demolishing stereotypes ? Of the 3 or 4 big names of "Arabesk" one was a joke in the end because he made his best to rise from delivering tea in some brothel , one was a joke because he was living proof what drinking too much did to mind , one was a joke because he was a Kurd who was born and had lived in a cave and somehow ended with so many women and so much money to flaunt and Gencebay was not a joke , because in the end he was one with the people ? Ah yes , because he can't challenge the Party he has to pick up an easier challenge . Ah yes , because he can't , he has to take his fight to public , establishing some untermensch narrative who somehow conspire against the Righteous . ı wonder how he failed to see the devious duplicity in the last 50 years .


and simply because he won't win the vote in that copyright institution , New Turkey has intervened , bodily and boldly , never forgetting gloriously . State takes over with assigning a board of directors for the duration . Let me see , every two years the institution has elections and the "Lefty" one or the previous one set date on a Sunday . Songwriters , composers and naturally there are a lot in the rural areas , in the tradition of what ı might describe as "people's poets" . You know , they tend to be Alevis , as well . So , none of them might conceivably vote for Gencebay's list . And since not many of them are "stars" they tend to have day jobs . Hence the other side wants the vote to take place on a weekday , so that the stars will not have to give up their weekend concerts and financial affairs . One man , one vote is such a burden , man ... Lefty ones cite the 20 year history of the institution with every vote on a weekend , except once . Impasse ? Of course not , New Turkey is mighty ...


this from a narrative by Ali Rıza Binboğa . ı remember him from late 70s or whatever , where he was everywhere . He gave an interview and for a like a 7 year old r16 , he was soooooooooooooo full of himself . ı have read the newspaper , have heard older brother talking on who is a singer and who is a braggart and so who is a better man , you get the idea . Binboğa refers Gencebay as Orhan Abi , an older brother to be respected , a family member and the like , but Gencebay is wrong in this . ı have had like 3 decades of "Am not an artist, will never be but I would never talk like that." See , the Party ruins the country because America wants Qatar know its place and remain servile to Saudis and be content with ruling New Turkey so Orhan Gencebay comes and proves r16 is wrong in anything he has ever known in 4 decades and whatever .


but then am very careful about collateral damage , feel guilty , have suspicion . 24th of January is the anniversary of the assasination of a journalist here in Turkey and a song was composed . Played every year afterwards . Saw it in a playlist , copied even , "dance" version or whatever but still a powerful one . Guess what , BBC interviews the singer / composer . It comes out proving she is like soooo full of herself . Turns out they have omitted the questions and wrote the answers together , giving perhaps unwanted impressions . The conspiratorial r16 would be most ready to claim she was billed as the Turkish Joan Baez with jail time . Now that ı think she did indeed sing with Baez in the 80s . And years pass and there is a certain amount of Western fans and stuff , at least according to newspapers here . Guess which side she would support and against which side she would write songs about if the Party failed big or whatever and there was a Civil War in Turkey ... Of course not because r16 has the song . But May Goverment much likes the Party , perhaps ?


tevekkül is like this , Allah Protects when you have done your best and put your trust . For she might well have been composing dozens of "marches" and the like after the journalist was blown up . Clintons in charge , America almighty and somehow humbled in Somalia and still time to Blackhawk Down and the Interior Minister of the time like begging the family of the journalist not to use the dead guy's name and fame to ask for a proper investigation as it might destroy the whole country . You know , him barely arriving to power , Congregation still not as powerful as it might be and contradictory signals from Washington . Delayed unmatched "Muslim" power for like a decade and a half ...

because it puts Party at risk , this lack of open love from US , despite their state of being conditioned to receive so much out of sight , puts some pressure on the Party . They do have to win , despite me failing to understand why . Watching them you would think nothing could ever happen to them . New Turkey readily out-votes Old Turkey , no confusion about that . Kurds ; half for the Party , half for the seperatists and they will make it impossible [as far as it is possible] for seperatists to gain anything . Their politicians are regularly receiving all sorts of court decisions against them . Seperatist rank and file much in Syria , so they can hardly contest it AK-47wise as well . So , naturally reforms in elections coming . You see , because they somehow can not "protect" the ballot boxes , the new laws will allow transfer of the said to other locations . Long runnin' thing that votes in any ballot box do not need to be marked according to the ballot boxes . You know if Village A has 105 eligible voters , there will be like maybe 130 , maybe 150 envelopes and votes and all of them will have a seal that proves they were set aside for Village A . When the election authority prints millions and millions more papers and they count without the required the seal , people naturally think if those 105 votes do not come as required , they will be destroyed and replaced by 105 votes placed in Town B . You know , they are already busy doing the votes , you can't expect them guys in B to find the correct seal for Village A ... Readily happenable in the East , where the Security is , well , required to be around anyhow .

towns in the West are difficult . In some village of Kurds in the 1990s , it's nothing to cut electricity for two years so that the village will produce 3 votes for the almost racists . The broken wires ? Repaired real fast . So that the seperatists will come and shoot a couple of people , because it happens , so that the village will take revenge and will become village guards and fight the seperatists for ever . Takes a lot courage , too , when a village of village guards gets attacked and Military reinforcements and stuff arrive a day and a half later . So , despite the regular news that 70 000 policemen are conducting routine searches , asking ID in the streets and checking bags and the like , there are security issues and people living in the same apartment house will no longer vote in the same ballot box . The rumour is they have extra a million or two "voters" . You are supposed to know your neighbours , right ? You see some guy and his wife and you have never seen them in your life and they are voting in yours . Yeah , you simply ask your neighbour who these people are and he/she will have no idea either ...

you know , because "Muslims" are divided ; Saudis might buy a congregation outright . Oh yeah , ı have had no opportunity to remark on the reports that some congregation is busy selling carpet slippers . Buy them and wear them and off to heaven you are .
 
Another Russian transport plane crashed in Syria...
Turkey continue to advance slowly in Afrin, Kurds from other regions send fighters to help anti-Turkish resistance there. According to Americans this is already hindering their ISIS mop-up operations.
Syrian army captured almost half of Eastern Ghouta, approaching urban areas.

The crash occurred as the Antonov-26 transport plane came down 500 meters (about 550 yards) short of the runway, Russian Defense Ministry said... :sad: All 39 on board dies RIP +
The ministry said it was investigating the crash, adding that "preliminary data suggests it could be a technical malfunction." It also ruled out the possibility that the plane had been fired upon.
 
The previous crash (in December 2016) was due to the pilot error and after that there were reports in the news about shortage of military pilots. So that existing ones work long shifts almost to the point of exhaustion. That, in addition to complicated weather conditions at the point of landing makes another pilot mistake likely explanation.
 
Palestinians are divided into clans, not tribes, but most people just use "tribal" as a shorthand.
Most people should talk less and read more, I can't be held responsible for that.

You yourself tied them together by claiming that Palestinians wouldn't endorse such murderous actions if they had a functioning state, and that their lack of one is the fault of the Israelis. Heck, being under occupation has arguably saved them from the sectarian violence of Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.
That was a claim made in the specific context of Palestinian history, not a generalised claim that a lack of democracy and anti-Israeli sentiment always go hand in hand. It's not as if most Arab states actually lack a functioning state, they just lack a participatory state or a strong civil society. Tunisia or Bahrain may be a lot of things, but they aren't yet failed states.
 
Most people should talk less and read more, I can't be held responsible for that.

I'm still right.

That was a claim made in the specific context of Palestinian history, not a generalised claim that a lack of democracy and anti-Israeli sentiment always go hand in hand.

But you specifically pointed to the actions of Israelis as the cause of their lack of civil society. I pointed out that they wouldn't have one in any case, and the populations of many countries that have nothing to do with Israel support near-genocidal actions against Israelis.
 
But you specifically pointed to the actions of Israelis as the cause of their lack of civil society. I pointed out that they wouldn't have one in any case, and the populations of many countries that have nothing to do with Israel support near-genocidal actions against Israelis.
As if the lack of democracy in Arab countries has nothing to do with the influence of foreign powers in the region? As if it's just due to some genetic incapability?
 
Spoiler :


extremely boring cycles of repetitions , heard it all before ? One of these days there will be some ships up in heavens and they will busy themselves with blowing things up and boring holes down and them American elites will be like blaming evil Turk that they could have acted differently -if they were warned . Once ı had a chance to read the writings of Mao , because ı had no other particular thing to do and man , they are utterly simple in writing , giving extremely detailed workings of some scenario and wait , repeat it very soon , like in the same page of the pocket book size tome . See , the militants know they are to shoot the village rich but it becomes really addictive and they might [as an example] waste partners in opium traffic and Commie Party official in situ has to protect those and he gets to be armed with the word of Mao and the undereducated militants discover it covers anything , their holy book or whatever , always true and stuff . Let me stress undereducated , without insulting people in regards to brain capacity and the like . See , the warning is to be simple . Impossible to deny that it exists , because them elites and stuff are not exactly up to their claims of ruling the world and the like .


right or wrong , we Turks are to be exterminated . Kurds are to be a tool in this , without discussing a single thing that they have a right or not to to be that tool . Tevekkül , as discussed in the last post , let things be happen , whatever the way they can happen . Americans did so many things to create the situation for a Civil War in Turkey , like the single guiding principle of like their entire foreign policy for 3 decades straight . Down to having the Black President content to watch the News as B-52s (loaded to the gills with bombs) circled out of sight as huge convoys of ISIL invaded lotta territory and established slave bazaars . Because it's our fault , because Little Imperialist calls those creatures as angry Arab Youth , rectifying the injustices of Sykes Picot , because those B-52s would be immediately above if an accident happened to some ISIL convoy , because ISIL is a mighty fighting power , because it's only heroic Kurds that can fight them and liberate poor slaves . Because a time will come and it will be proven Ankara has been "supporting" the Jihadis and it will be proven heroic Kurds at great cost have defeated the same and their heroism would not be needed if their grievances were heeded in time . So let the UN pass some resolution to bomb Turkey sky high , so that Kurds can be become boots on the ground .

not many people might remember my anger , at back in 2014 . Had this cool sentence , from the Starks' adage of Winter is coming - paraphrased into 2014 was coming . Instead of teaching our place in the 100th anniversary of the Great War , despite them Jihadis fullfilling their part of the contract and establishing slave bazaars and them Kurds heroically stopping them , the whole bunch , America stalled the very moment when the shiny uniforms , aka the Peshmerga bolted in some accidental clash or something . Barzani mobilized 40 years olds , 70s even . American reaction was delaying it to 2017 ... Resulted in some "silly" Star Wars episodes , too , but Rouge One was as good as it could possibly be ...

instead of teaching our place in the 100th anniversary of America entering the Great War , in which they had duly avoided fighting us by all means , America instead did everything possible to get New Turkey kill as many as Kurds as possible . In the 100th anniversary of the end of the Great War , who knows ?

this entire thing is based on the premise that New Turkey is so important to US designs . That willingly sacrifice their boots on the ground for no good return . Ankara claims like 3100 , for losses of 42 in addition to like 160 from the so called Free Syrians . Allah is to be feared , as His Judgement Day for the thing might save thousands upon thousands of Kurds who are not exactly surprised that nobody actually gives a rat's backside of care , but like ...

in return for what ? The New Turkey will fold the moment its fake economy is exposed to some shock . And ı am like reading newspapers for the last decade , each economy page full of dire warnings about the day the FED of US increases the interest rates . But , wait it never happens , because the rates are "bought" by the stockmarkets in anticipation , the increase is delayed , this , that , it ... Iraq needs rebuilding after the shameful existance of ISIL , 80 billion dollars of credit required and Saudis promised it , because of the need to counter them evil Iranians and my , they are down only to 1 or something , Qatar gives 1 or something and New Turkey gloriously 5 . Because it suits Americans that it suits the narrative that New Turkey is prosperous and now a global power . It also suits New Turkey , using taxpayer money to lend money to Iraq , so that 5 billion dollars of construction contracts will naturally be given to companies owned by "Muslims" . Because the said companies are not able to sell all the houses they have built in Turkey and might go bankrupt and the like . They supposedly bought some tunneling machine , some "Muslim" company and they supposedly got some 30 tunneling projects in Istanbul alone , because they can . Could have been bought from Elon Musk even . Construction is the only sector that has reliably grown in the 15 or so years of A-K-P , despite the doubts cast by analysts recently , depending on their reporting on the use of cement , stuff like that . You know , much like foreign experts looking at crumbs of info and trying to figure out the true state of Commie economies . Or maybe not . Am no expert , and ı mean seriously in economics , and ı can't really know whether they increased the taxes for electric powered cars . In a country of 80 millions , with an average of 80 cars sold for the last 5 years . Real hard to see whether New Turkey is pissed off with Musk , now that his car into Mars thing was shown alive only by one channel or not . Owned by the guy who distributes BMWs and the like . Might even see Diesel is unjustly attacked by evil Americans and Global Warming is a Zionist lie , if the sales come at cheap , for this Local and National car , which will surely appear for some election like stuff .


resistance ? As par the course . Am ready to listen and unlikely to be te only one . Really ready to believe carrying soil is big business , they brought in Vietnamese because they couldn't find enough drivers for the mass of new trucks "Muslims" bought , they changed the plans for the 3rd airport of Istanbul and "added a meter" so that more soil would be carried , they are going to dig a canal , like practically because at 45 kilometers long , we are looking at cubic kilometers of soil to be carried . And all that truck traffic leads to accidents . But , did the 3rd airport cause 400 deaths already ?

of course there is no end to strategic brilliance . Once again repeating myself , but the Republic of 1923 was long supposed to be one of only 7 countries in the world to wholly feed itself . And you can hear housewifes talking in marketplace that the new "hormoned" seeds are for one use only and you have to buy them again next year if you want to plant . And the State fines farmers who do not use such seeds ... Or indeed the mighty case of American corn . 1997 is the year a major American company takes a licence to build a factory . All the environmetalists are up in arms for it might ruin some lake . 2004 is the year a major New Turkey company becomes the first customer for the product , corn sugar . With a cola product . Pepsi and Coke , they are all colas in Turkish . The New Turkey company makes a massive ad campaign , Chevy Chase plays an American impressed by the taste , starts speaking Turkish . Local and National ? Exactly has "Turk" in the name of the product , despite laws prohibiting that . You might not believe this , but Pepsi and Coca Cola companies sue the newcomer in courts . Using corn sugar , it comes much cheaper than the American brands , unfair trade and all . It suits the New Turkey company , because as you might readily and easily guess , the foreigners envy such a success , but they have to understand their colonialist mentality and monopolist tendencies no longer apply . No longer in much limelight , but when Congegation ruled this land , the company just loved to brag that its founder , an emigree from Crimea , was among the very first Turkish and Muslim citizens to break into "trade" in 1944 , buying a business from its previous owner , an ethinically Greek citizen of the country . The "Varlık Vergisi" of 1943 , much reviled by all , foremost the Congregation , that strips the ethnic minorities of the preeminence they had in all the Business life of the country does not enter into that particular narrative . Simply because the founder was such a nice person and impressed all the Greeks that owned confectionary shops so he , too , was allowed to have one . Not because the business people were considered to be war profiteers and had to pay crippling taxes and this somehow increased the number of Turkish business people . Like exponentially ... And guess what , you will see Pepsi and Coke everywhere while the nations (both the one that votes for the Party and the one that does not) seem to have forgotten the pride of all Turks , the first time a Turkish brand took on global giants and the giants panicked and were envious . But then this is actually the reason why a Turkish guy runs Coca Cola these days as Bush II feared the evil had woken up to the game and might question the right of any Congregation company to usurp the word , as Iranians were having so much fun with explosively formed penetrators zipping inside Abrams tanks . They might need the Turk , right ? So , they had to show we and Americans were brothers , or something .


but the American company runs supreme , none the less . Even in the days A-K-P did not "fight" for headscarves , it was always ready to defend the company . No court ruling could make it go away . Consider the fact , the 14 year old son of the previous President , the Turkish branch of George Clooney , yeah that's the one for the Press taught us he looked like a twin to the Actor , had a company that sold sugared corn in plastic cups . Good cop , bad cop routine and shows corn is here to stay , perhaps ? American company supposedly prepares a report that the EU countries have re-organized their sugar beet industries . So they might compete more successfully . So ? Because they are unprofitable , New Turkey is to sell 14 sugar factories . Not because EU will outperform them . Possibly because the American company thinks it might be outperformed and takes Local and National competition out of the game . Now , sugar factories were like the first the Republic constructed . Naturally , nobody knew much about planting sugar beets , so they hired a Bulgarian expert . Who taught everything wrong , but he was found out , so an Hungarian was hired instead . That kind of thing . Too long a way to Budapest , but the Bulgarians are next door , they wouldn't want a strong , economically independent Republic ...

this is the Strategic vision of New Turkey , Sing lullabies to public and see the country transformed into what Americans will like and use all the good will to acquire hydrocarbons , because Arabs live gloriously . ı just saw Theresa May , like taking backward flips while inviting the idiot to become the Saudi King to the door of Downing 10 , while she could have made him stand on one feet at the corner when inside . ı hear that the 6th Fleet will protect the American drilling ship on its way , while Italy has just replaced UK as the second trading partner of New Turkey , after Germany . If such thing happens , with American ships patrolling , am prety sure we will hear nothing about it . Or everything , now that Qatar makes its money from offshore wells , right ?




and of course America does its best to prove this one wrong . They have to look like faithful to their friends . Which we are not . And wholesale terror bombing and stuff once again works and first cracks appear within Ghouta . Might mean Syrians try something , so Ankara and Washington successfully talks ; presumably Afrin can be cleaned until May , despite New Turkey's strict refusals to accept timetables because it looked cool ...
 
As if the lack of democracy in Arab countries has nothing to do with the influence of foreign powers in the region? As if it's just due to some genetic incapability?

Those aren't exactly the only two choices.
 
Those aren't exactly the only two choices.

No, they aren't, but any serious discussion of why these countries lack democratic institutions should probably include the fact that the US basically conspired to destroy those institutions in virtually every case. For example, Iran, Iraq, and Syria were all republics until CIA-backed coups destroyed the republican governments, substituting military dictatorship that led to Baathist rule for Iraq and Syria, and the monarchy which was obviously replaced by the Islamic Republic in Iran.
 
No, they aren't, but any serious discussion of why these countries lack democratic institutions should probably include the fact that the US basically conspired to destroy those institutions in virtually every case. For example, Iran, Iraq, and Syria were all republics until CIA-backed coups destroyed the republican governments, substituting military dictatorship that led to Baathist rule for Iraq and Syria, and the monarchy which was obviously replaced by the Islamic Republic in Iran.

There are numerous examples of countries going through the same thing and becoming democracies. Korea, India, Georgia, the Warsaw Pact countries, Singapore and arguably the Philippines.
 
There are numerous examples of countries going through the same thing and becoming democracies. Korea, India, Georgia, the Warsaw Pact countries, Singapore and arguably the Philippines.
That's an argument that democracy is possible in the Middle East, not that the Middle East should have become miraculously democratic.

I mean, it's not above the examples have produced particularly enduring republican institutions, either. Last thing I heard, Poland was prosecuting a heavy metal band for selling a disrespectful t-shirt.
 
That's an argument that democracy is possible in the Middle East, not that the Middle East should have become miraculously democratic.

It isn't realistic within our lifetimes (except in Lebanon, perhaps). Clans are too predominant in Arab society, and Sunni Islam doesn't seem to have ever meshed with republicanism (all the Sunni supporters of it are heavily Westernized and secular, and I defy you to produce a notable counterexample).

I mean, it's not above the examples have produced particularly enduring republican institutions, either. Last thing I heard, Poland was prosecuting a heavy metal band for selling a disrespectful t-shirt.

Pot, meet kettle.
 
It isn't realistic within our lifetimes (except in Lebanon, perhaps). Clans are too predominant in Arab society, and Sunni Islam doesn't seem to have ever meshed with republicanism (all the Sunni supporters of it are heavily Westernized and secular, and I defy you to produce a notable counterexample).
You could have said much the same thing about the Jews, one hundred and fifty years ago. People did. And while Israeli politics is a joke, it's a joke for it's own reasons, and not any reductive ethnic stereotype.

Yes, that's exactly the same thing. Respect human beings and respecting a picture of a bird are the same.
 
You could have said much the same thing about the Jews, one hundred and fifty years ago. People did.

Jews secularized at very high rates. I don't anticipate the same thing happening soon in the Arab world, especially since pretty much all Jews were enmeshed in secularizing Gentile societies.

And while Israeli politics is a joke, it's a joke for it's own reasons, and not any reductive ethnic stereotype.

That's because Judaism has zero political tradition. The idea of making a theocracy wouldn't even occur to Haredim. Israeli democracy comes down to a push-and-pull between various groups, many of which have fundamentally different views about the role and legitimacy of the Israeli state.

Yes, that's exactly the same thing. Respect human beings and respecting a picture of a bird are the same.

There are people who build their lives and identities around religion. If insulting that religion causes them trauma, does it follow that insults to religion should be banned?
 
Jews secularized at very high rates. I don't anticipate the same thing happening soon in the Arab world, especially since pretty much all Jews were enmeshed in secularizing Gentile societies.
That's true from, what, 1880? Jewish secularisation was a rapid, even sudden phenomenon, the source of marked generational divides, as Jewish literature of the time provides. There's many a Bundist born to ghetto-dwelling pietists.

That's because Judaism has zero political tradition. The idea of making a theocracy wouldn't even occur to Haredim. Israeli democracy comes down to a push-and-pull between various groups, many of which have fundamentally different views about the role and legitimacy of the Israeli state.
That's really not true at all. Judaism simply doesn't have a tradition of state power, which is not the sum of politics. (Perhaps that narrowness of thinking is what makes it so impossible for you to imagine "Arab" and "democracy" in the same sentence.) Likewise, you can't reduce "Arab political tradition" to monarchs, theocrats and nationalists- and even if you could, the bone-deep contradictions between all three of those positions demonstrates that Arabs are not incapable of public thought, whether or not you particularly approve of their thinking.

There are people who build their lives and identities around religion. If insulting that religion causes them trauma, does it follow that insults to religion should be banned?
Insulting people is the same is discriminating against them. Cats are dogs, circles are squares. Everything is the same.
 
That's true from, what, 1880? Jewish secularisation was a rapid, even sudden phenomenon, the source of marked generational divides, as Jewish literature of the time provides. There's many a Bundist born to ghetto-dwelling pietists.

My point exactly - the religious communities didn't secularize on their own, they did so in reaction to the development of political thought in the West.

That's really not true at all. Judaism simply doesn't have a tradition of state power

Fine, that would have been a better term.

Likewise, you can't reduce "Arab political tradition" to monarchs, theocrats and nationalists- and even if you could, the bone-deep contradictions between all three of those positions demonstrates that Arabs are not incapable of public thought, whether or not you particularly approve of their thinking.

I didn't say that they were incapable of public thought, but I've seen no sign of them having the social prerequisites for democracy. They did try to emulate the successes of the West, but every attempt to build Western-style states in the entire Arab world failed spectacularly. Even the closest thing, Lebanon, remains as sectarian as Iraq or Egypt. Seems more than just a coincidence, no?
 
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