[RD] Taxes are actually not theft

[Hehehe]

you didn't answer my question

Ok, let me answer your question. It is a contrived example. There is no moral equivalency. The scenario you laid out is flawed. The government operates to uphold the social contract. The government operates to provide the public with a certain set of services, which are as as close to the will of the majority as a representative democracy can get. Maximum amount of utility for maximum amount of people. If you are not happy with this arrangement, you have the ability to change it at the ballot box. You also have the freedom of speech, so that you might try and convince others as to why the social contract should be changed. And, if those are not enough, you have the freedom to abandon the social contract by leaving the country. Whereas mafia has none of those things. Mafia isn't working to uphold the social contract. In fact, they are working against it. Unlike democratically elected governments, mafia are nothing more than petty criminals, and they've never had any kind of legitimacy that comes from the people.

I'm not even sure the majority votes, but it certainly does not elect politicians. I dont get to vote for politicians from other states or districts, yet those politicians are taxing me to enrich their own constituents. Now, why does voting create the moral authority for taxation? Telling the victims of theft they can leave if they dont like it doesn't address the issue.

I'm not sure if the majority votes, but they at least have the option to do so. What they do with that option is their business. And again, if you have problems with US law, I suggest that you take it up with the US government. I don't know your specific circumstances, but generally, I'd say that taxation needs to come with representation.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm not even sure the majority votes, but it certainly does not elect politicians. I dont get to vote for politicians from other states or districts, yet those politicians are taxing me to enrich their own constituents.

Only a subset of shareholders vote as well, and yet their elected managers are who decide the amount to charge for their services.

You're kinda insisting that a person who inherits their shares can then to demand their complete share of profits.

Now, why does voting create the moral authority for taxation? Telling the victims of theft they can leave if they dont like it doesn't address the issue.

It's the mechanism by which the original property rights were assigned. The original property rights weren't assigned morally, and so all resulting transitions are thus tainted. You have a legitimate complaint - that the voting system isn't perfectly moral. But the entire foundation is immoral as well.

You cannot use a tainted tool and then claim that you own the products of that tool completely.

 

[Bamspeedy]

So what happens if you stop paying the government for protection? They come and get ya and take yer stuff... At least with the Mafia the local Don might take pity on you if you're among the poor and downtrodden or some other reason. You wont get much sympathy from the government's hired guns hauling you away.

'Might' being the key word. Or the 'local Don' will have someone put a bullet in your head.....or the head of a family member of yours.

Cut a deal with the IRS to pay less than you owe:
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/offer-in-compromise-1
Get a fresh start
https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-fresh-start-program-helps-taxpayers-who-owe-the-irs/

I'm not counting all the hundreds of 'tax relief' companies and tax attorney ads I hear on the radio at 3AM that make claims of being able to reduce your tax debt of $10,000 down to as little as $100 by renegotiating with the IRS, as most of them are most likely scams.

 

[El_Machinae]

The government almost does nothing if you stop paying them. They give you the payment structure for next year's services before you decide to engage their services.

The exception is property tax, but only if they ratchet up the rate. The valuation of the property tax was already built into its price when you bought it.

 

[Slaughter]

Governments are just gangs that control the territory of a country.
A gang is a wannabe-government that doesn't control enough territory to be THE government.

Governments are necessary because its far better to have one single gang that shakes you down on schedule than multiple roving gangs pillaging, killing and extracting tribute from the locals with no order or logic beyond "give us ur stuff or die".

When a government fails, parallel governments start to rise.

 

[Berzerker]

'Might' being the key word. Or the 'local Don' will have someone put a bullet in your head.....or the head of a family member of yours.

Cut a deal with the IRS to pay less than you owe:
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/offer-in-compromise-1
Get a fresh start
https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-fresh-start-program-helps-taxpayers-who-owe-the-irs/

I'm not counting all the hundreds of 'tax relief' companies and tax attorney ads I hear on the radio at 3AM that make claims of being able to reduce your tax debt of $10,000 down to as little as $100 by renegotiating with the IRS, as most of them are most likely scams.

you might get a bullet from either if you dont pay up

 

[Synobun]

Fear the IRS death squads.

 

[Berzerker]

refuse to pay and the people who show up will have guns and they'll use them if you dont cooperate

 

[Synobun]

If by "don't cooperate" you mean "violently resist" then yeah, sure. Perhaps consider not breaking the law.

 

[El_Machinae]

If you don't pay your rent, you also get evicted. Don't pay for your security deposit box, and they'll throw your stuff out.

 

[Berzerker]

If by "don't cooperate" you mean "violently resist" then yeah, sure. Perhaps consider not breaking the law.

Yeah, so the wealthy and politically connected demand taxes from you for their own benefit and send gunmen to collect, and if they gotta kill ya, sure. But thats real different from the Mafia, its the law. We're discussing moral concepts, not legal rationalizations.

If you don't pay your rent, you also get evicted. Don't pay for your security deposit box, and they'll throw your stuff out.

Those are user fees paid to rent someone else's property.

 

[Synobun]

We're discussing moral concepts, not legal rationalizations.

Both are human constructs.

 

[Traitorfish]

If by "don't cooperate" you mean "violently resist" then yeah, sure. Perhaps consider not breaking the law.

Non-violent tax resistors have also faced persecution. Henry David Thoreau, famously, was jailed for his refusal to pay taxes in protest to the Mexican War.

Both are human constructs.

However, one is propounded by philosophers, the other by jurists, so it's a question of which profession you find more credible.

Those are user fees paid to rent someone else's property.

I thought we weren't talking about legal rationalisations?

 

[Synobun]

Non-violent tax resistors have also faced persecution. Henry David Thoreau, famously, was jailed for his refusal to pay taxes in protest to the Mexican War.

I'm not denying that. There's plenty of legal ramifications for someone who sees fit to utilize society's resources while consciously choosing to refrain from contributing to aforementioned resources.

Berzerker seems to think you'll be shot dead if you refuse to pay your taxes and thus the government is no better than a mafia. Hence the "IRS death squad" quip.

 

[El_Machinae]

Those are user fees paid to rent someone else's property.

Yes. And taxes are the user fees to use national property

 

[Berzerker]

Both are human constructs.

I'm debating the morality of taxes, I already know they're legal

Berzerker seems to think you'll be shot dead if you refuse to pay your taxes and thus the government is no better than a mafia. Hence the "IRS death squad" quip.

Government kills people all the time for not doing as told

I thought we weren't talking about legal rationalisations?

Property and compensating the owner for using it preceded government's legal rationalizations for killing people

Yes. And taxes are the user fees to use national property

Then why do renters pay landlords instead of Uncle Sam? Some taxes are user fees, some are not. A gas tax to cover the costs of road maintenance and construction is a user fee. A larger gas tax to cover the costs of road maintenance and construction and the company's bribes is theft.

 

[Commodore]

Government kills people all the time for not doing as told

Name one case of an American citizen being executed for not paying their taxes.

Then why do renters pay landlords instead of Uncle Sam?

Renters do pay Uncle Sam, just indirectly. A portion of the rent they pay your landlord goes to the taxes they owe the government.

 

[Agent327]

I'm debating the morality of taxes, I already know they're legal

Government kills people all the time for not doing as told

US government, yes. But that's because of the death penalty, isn't it. Something the US has in common with countries like Saudi Arabia.

Property and compensating the owner for using it preceded government's legal rationalizations for killing people

Then why do renters pay landlords instead of Uncle Sam? Some taxes are user fees, some are not. A gas tax to cover the costs of road maintenance and construction is a user fee. A larger gas tax to cover the costs of road maintenance and construction and the company's bribes is theft.

You seem to confuse private and public property. It the government is the owner, you pay the government. There seems to be a quirky idea that if an individual tax payer does not agree with a particular government expense, one can object to that expense. You can, using your democratic rights. (Try that in Saudi Arabia. You are free to move there - and to be taxed there.) If you disagree with taxes sic, create an anarchic country. But don't complain about individual taxes or taxes in general. That's simply extremely short-sighted. Otherwise, exercise your democratic right to complain; it's paid for by tax. You may even found a party to abolish (particular) taxes. Or start a movement within a party to do so. It has been known to happen.

However, none of the above has anything to do with morality. Governments have expenses, so they have taxes. That's all there is to it.

 

[Berzerker]

Name one case of an American citizen being executed for not paying their taxes.

Renters do pay Uncle Sam, just indirectly. A portion of the rent they pay your landlord goes to the taxes they owe the government.

How do you change killed to executed? People only get killed over taxes when they refuse to comply, not as their sentence. Why is the landlord profiting off national property? Why dont the renters pay Uncle Sam instead?

US government, yes. But that's because of the death penalty, isn't it. Something the US has in common with countries like Saudi Arabia.

You seem to confuse private and public property. It the government is the owner, you pay the government. There seems to be a quirky idea that if an individual tax payer does not agree with a particular government expense, one can object to that expense. You can, using your democratic rights. (Try that in Saudi Arabia. You are free to move there - and to be taxed there.) If you disagree with taxes sic, create an anarchic country. But don't complain about individual taxes or taxes in general. That's simply extremely short-sighted. Otherwise, exercise your democratic right to complain; it's paid for by tax. You may even found a party to abolish (particular) taxes. Or start a movement within a party to do so. It has been known to happen.

However, none of the above has anything to do with morality. Governments have expenses, so they have taxes. That's all there is to it.

More people are killed by enforcement than executed by the courts, but yes, none of the above has to do with morality. The Mafia has expenses, thats all there is to it. Read the debate, I didn't confuse private and public property, El Mac said they're "national property".

 

[El_Machinae]

Then why do renters pay landlords instead of Uncle Sam? Some taxes are user fees, some are not. A gas tax to cover the costs of road maintenance and construction is a user fee. A larger gas tax to cover the costs of road maintenance and construction and the company's bribes is theft.

No, don't just think of it as a 'user fee for the road'. But you may, if you like. Paying an income tax is a user free for using the road.

What you seem to be objecting to is the idea that the shareholders of an infrastructure can get a portion of the user-fee. Why does the tax only have to cover the cost of maintenance and construction? Should my rent only cover the cost of maintenance of my apartment? How did Trump become a billionaire if the owners of buildings couldn't draw a profit?

Taxes give you access to a ginormous set of infrastructure that extend well and beyond the roads. But hey, if you want to call it a user free for the roads, that's fine.