The Abortion and Vaccination Thread

[Yeekim]

"Unwanted" by whom?

If she did not wish to get pregnant, it was her responsibility to ensure she didn't.
If he did not wish to get her pregnant, it was his responsibility to ensure he didn't.

Seems rather simple to me really.

EDIT: Women also may use (or cease using) contraception unbeknownst to man, as well as decide to abort (or carry to term) regardless of his wishes.

 

[MaryKB]

Please reread earlier posts by myself, and especially Owen. It's not nearly so simple at all like you're making things seem, especially when you consider risks and difficulties for women. A woman using contraception is neither as affordable, accessible, and as safe as what a man can do. A woman also can't get someone else pregnant, ever.

If you're a man and you haven't talked to your sexual partner if she wants a baby, and you're not absolutely sure she wants to be pregnant, you should assume she doesn't, otherwise you're totally validating my point about how men just don't care about what you do to women. "Eh so I've screwed up her body and her life, I'm satisfied I took my moment of pleasure from her, and it's not like she explicitly told me she doesn't want me doing that to her, so it's her fault."

 

[Farm Boy]

Yes, one shouldn't engage in sex if one is unwilling to accept and be responsible for all possible outcomes. Doing so without all due care beforehand is probably an evil.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

In any sort of mutual relationship, be it a long-term loving one, or merely a short-term physical one, contraception is a joint decision and a joint responsibility. This means the woman has as much say in the use of a condom as the man, and the man has as much say in the use of any hormonal/physical precautions the woman can take. By which I don't mean either party has the right to force the other to use anything they're not comfortable with, but they do have the right to refuse sex without it and are certainly involved in the decision.

So for that reason it's wrong to lessen the woman's responsibility for contraception just because the options she can use personally are less affordable or accessible. Condoms are equally as affordable and accessible to her and she has every right to insist on their use.

Indeed with the hypothetical example given, where the woman both initiated the encounter and actively discouraged the use of condoms, to say that she somehow bears zero responsibility for this is just ludicrous.

 

[Yeekim]

If you're a man and you haven't talked to your sexual partner if she wants a baby, and you're not absolutely sure she wants to be pregnant, you should assume she doesn't, otherwise you're totally validating my point about how men just don't care about what you do to women. "Eh so I've screwed up her body and her life, I'm satisfied I took my moment of pleasure from her, and it's not like she explicitly told me she doesn't want me doing that to her, so it's her fault."

I'm a man who did not want to get her pregnant and also made it clear to her. However, at one point I wasn't careful enough to make sure I didn't. It then appeared she had wanted it to happen very much. Consequently, I've been raising my child for the last 10 years.
Never did it occur to me I should blame anyone but myself for that outcome.

Edit: My advice to anyone, irrespective of sex: if you don't want kids, don't count on anyone else but yourself to take care you won't get them. Or if you do, don't shirk the responsibility.

 

[Farm Boy]

So much angst over whether one implies an inclusive or rather than an exclusive or. Or has always been an interaction of evil* in this context. Love was never an or, it has always been an and.

*Intended or not.

 

[metalhead]

Indeed with the hypothetical example given, where the woman both initiated the encounter and actively discouraged the use of condoms, to say that she somehow bears zero responsibility for this is just ludicrous.

A woman is not responsible for what a man does or does not do. The man bears 100% of the responsibility for his actions.

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

A woman is not responsible for what a man does or does not do. The man bears 100% of the responsibility for his actions.

A man is responsible for his choices, and a women is responsible for her choices. To say otherwise is sexist.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

A woman is not responsible for what a man does or does not do. The man bears 100% of the responsibility for his actions.

A man is not responsible for what a woman does or does not do. The woman bears 100% of the responsibility for her actions.

^ If that doesn't look good to you, what you wrote isn't coherent and effectively says nothing.

The fact of the matter is that people are responsible for what they choose. Both men and women. If the situation isn't rape, the woman and man shares responsibility for the outcome of sex. As has been pointed out (but largely ignored because it's self-evident but inconvenient to narrative), abstinence is an option available to both men and women. It has the highest success rate for preventing pregnancy and the lowest cost. If someone chooses a different route, they have responsibility for the outcome of that choice.

 

[El_Machinae]

A woman is not responsible for what a man does or does not do. The man bears 100% of the responsibility for his actions.

Yes and no. Unless multiple people can have 100% responsibility, it makes no sense. You're responsible for your own actions, but it's fundamentally impossible to be 100% responsible for outcomes. How can we credit removing leaded gasoline with a reduction in the crime rate if criminals are 100% responsible for their own actions? It's a semantic trap, or a place to nitpick, and that's about it.

I read a great Twitter feed about how the male orgasm is basically 100% to blame for pregnancies. The entire sexual adventure will result in no pregnancies unless there's a male orgasm. It was a bit of word play, but it was great.

 

[metalhead]

A man is not responsible for what a woman does or does not do. The woman bears 100% of the responsibility for her actions.

Sure, of course. However since women do not ejaculate semen, women are not responsible for where such ejaculations happen. They have no control over it.

 

[Farm Boy]

They're not? What abject level of hell normalizes that instead of criminalizes it?

I can jack off in a sock all month long. Sexual intercourse takes more than my will.

 

[rah]

women are not responsible for where such ejaculations happen.

That, is the most absurd statement I have ever read.

 

[Lexicus]

Sure, of course. Since women do not ejaculate semen, women are not responsible for where suchejaculations happen. They can't be. It isn't something they do.

Leaving rapes out of the picture, it seems like women bear some responsibility for allowing such ejaculations to happen in a place where they might result in pregnancy...

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

There are many people trying to find an asymmetry here and I really just can't find it. Honestly when I read @Owen Glyndwr's post I thought I saw it for a second. I was like yeah, yeah the man has the penis, he does the deed and he can always say no. And frankly, I hadn't totally squared with that fact, so I appreciate it. But then I remember that the women has an essential part of the equation too, and she, too, can (should be able to) always say no.

Consensual sex is consensual. Both the man and the women have the power the say no and the show must stop. If the women says yes, it only matters if the man too says yes. If the man says yes, it only matters if the women too says yes. There really is a perfect symmetry here with consensual sex. Together they take responsibility. As farm boy says, it's an and, not an or.

 

[Lexicus]

There are many people trying to find an asymmetry here

There's no question that there's an asymmetry here. The asymmetry proceeds from the basic biological fact that every time a fertile man orgasms represents a chance of getting someone pregnant, whereas women can only get pregnant a few days each month.

I actually would agree with the statement that unplanned pregnancies are overwhelmingly or almost entirely the fault of men. But I don't think it's 100% the fault of men 100% of the time.

Another point no one mentioned: is an unplanned pregnancy resulting from a broken condom necessarily entirely the man's fault?

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

There's no question that there's an asymmetry here. The asymmetry proceeds from the basic biological fact that every time a fertile man orgasms represents a chance of getting someone pregnant, whereas women can only get pregnant a few days each month.

There is no reason why this biological fact would place more responsibility on the man. I was talking to my wife about question of responsibility this morning actually, funny enough she said the women knows her cycle and can therefore pretty easily decide not to have sex in the window where she could get pregnant, and for that reason she think the women is more responsible. I pushed back on this, but it's funny you would say the opposite.

Another point no one mentioned: is an unplanned pregnancy resulting from a broken condom necessarily entirely the man's fault?

No, why? Again, they both agree, they both understand the risks and possibilities of a broken condom.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

There is no reason why this biological fact would place more responsibility on the man. I was talking to my wife about question of responsibility this morning actually, funny enough she said the women knows cycle and can therefore pretty easily decide not to have sex in the window where she could get pregnant, and for that reason she think the women is more responsible.

I take it your wife's cycles are regular and she has no medical issues such as hypothyroidism? There are many women whose cycles are irregular or they have thyroid issues (the two often go together) or other medical things going on that mean they can't know for sure just when it's safe to risk sex and not get pregnant.

 

[Lexicus]

There is no reason why this biological fact would place more responsibility on the man.

Really? The fact that a man is capable of causing thousands of unplanned pregnancies in a year, while a woman can get pregnant at most twice in one year has no relevance to responsibility for unplanned pregnancies? Maybe it doesn't tell us much about moral responsibility in any particular case, but it is clearly telling us something about which of the sexes is likely to be causing more unplanned pregnancies in the aggregate.

In any case, there is no question that it's generally men who want to have PIV sex that can lead to pregnancies, it's generally men who are resistant to wearing condoms, and it's generally men who skip out on taking responsibility for the consequences of unprotected PIV sex. Men are capable of skipping out on such consequences in a way women are not so it is obvious that under any basic theory of incentives men are going to be a lot more gung-ho than women about exposing themselves and their partners to those consequences.

Just so there is no confusion: the position I'm defending is, again, that men are mostly responsible for this issue, not entirely.

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

I take it your wife's cycles are regular and she has no medical issues such as hypothyroidism? There are many women whose cycles are irregular or they have thyroid issues (the two often go together) or other medical things going on that mean they can't know for sure just when it's safe to risk sex and not get pregnant.

Yeah, her cycles are pretty regular I think. Hopefully she doesn't mind me talking about this to random internet people lol. That is completely true, and a great point. Which is why I think focusing on that is kind of a moot point either way in my opinion.