The Abortion and Vaccination Thread

[Farm Boy]

In the places where it's not already criminal, they're trending that way. Classify it as sexual assault/rape. Which is usually addressed in the greater issue.

As for male hormonal birth control, it needs work. It's coming along though. Much more promising than 10 years ago. Assuming all responsibility for pregnancy is woman's work, or that men don't control themselves is a damned lie. Crimes are crimes, and partnerships take at least two people. Situations that are problematic are problematic and the exception. People are way more functional than the picture painted. Source is yawn worthy predictable though. Yuck.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

if you believe in bodily autonomy when it comes to abortion why not other less important matters like refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Because when you bake a cake, chances are it's going to get eaten within a few hours. It's not going to sit in anyone's body for 9 months and after that nobody will be mandated by law to support and care for it, feed, clothe, shelter, and educate it for the next 18 years (or 21 if that's the legal age in the applicable jurisdiction), and so on.

I think it is hilarious that people who are the most unwilling to accept infringement on a woman's bodily autonomy are usually first in line to demand that anti-vaxxers be forced to 'get with the program.'

If I'm in the same nearby space with a pregnant woman and she sneezes on me, I'm not going to become pregnant. If I'm in the same nearby space with a person who has the flu or some other contagious disease, I might catch what they have (even though I do get an annual flu shot it's not always for the strain that's actually going around - doctors sometimes don't predict these things correctly). That's not something I'm willing to risk, as my immune system isn't that good at its job.

When they legalise Cannibis at the Federal level and you states places numerous restrictions so that its not avaliable anywhere in your state
You wont be a Hypocrite and scream like a Farmer for bailout money ?

Not that cannabis is the topic of this thread, but since the point was brought up... it's legal in Canada at the federal level, but each province is handling it in various ways (where it can be sold, how much is allowed to be purchased at once, etc.). The company that owns the building I live in decided that absolutely no cannabis will be allowed in its buildings (they'd have to make an exception if it were for medical reasons, as they have to make exceptions for the 'no dogs allowed' policy if a tenant has a registered service dog).

What if we say that women should have the autonomy to go into induced labor or have a C-section at any point in the pregnancy, but if the fetus has passed the point of viability (c. 24 weeks), then it must be delivered alive if possible and receive neonatal care like any other premature birth? This would solve the bodily autonomy problem without also forcing the killing of a viable fetus.

What's the difference between an abortion and inducing labor/having a C-section for a non-viable fetus (less than 24 weeks)?

We ran that past Dommy once, in the way back when. He was huffing and puffing that women who have abortions should be subject to capital punishment. I asked him how he planned to execute some twenty million people.

He didn't have an answer.

I put it to him in a more personal way: Not that I've ever asked any other female CFC member if they've had an abortion (not my business), but chances are there might be one or two overall when you take all the women of CFC into account (OT plus those who only hang out in the Civ forums)... was he willing to sentence a fellow forum member to be executed for this? If I were in that situation, would he decree that sentence for me? (by that time I was one of the few people here with whom he still had a mostly amicable relationship)

He actually did back down from the execution idea he'd been pushing. He still felt abortion was all kinds of morally wrong, but at least he stopped advocating execution.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

just some anecdotal evidence. my mom is an anti-vaxxer in the healthy sense. she would never endanger our (my sister and my) lifes because of her own views on modern medicine, and therefore we both had like one or two mandatory shots when we were babies, and I had some additional shots before travelling to India and Bolivia, but aside from that, that was it. absolutely no vaccine that wasn't utterly necessary. and I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with this stance.

of course vaccination can also go wrong. usually the worst that happens is a rash or an itch or something like that. but I've seen a case where a life-threatening allergic reaction happened due to vaccination. luckily it was taken care of. not all vaccinations are the same. Influenza is pretty harmless. smallpox almost never goes over without any side effects. probably the worst is Encephalitis, which has a really low chance but can quite literally cause life-long brain damage.

in general I think vaccination is a great thing and I will most definitely vacc my kids if it ever gets to that point, but just like with modern medicine I personally will always try to let my body handle it himself, to not fall into the pits off "an aspirin is harmless" (it isn't, at all) and generally treat the topic pretty seriously. I care what goes into my body

 

[civvver]

So what you're saying is we need a vaccine preventing pregnancy. Get these anti vaxers and pro lifers on the same page.

The issue with all of it boils down to educated. I don't know a single person who objects to vaccinations for religious reasons or any reasons really other than erroneous fear. They still think vaccines can cause autism or other issues, or make you sick, or are just bad for you for reasons they can't explain. They're usually the same people who are on gulten free diets cus gulten is terrible for you don't you know, and generally they go all organic, non gmo too, and do things like turn off their wifi at home during the night to reduce their cancer risk.

Similarly, many pro lifers seem to think abstinence is the only form of birth control and thus don't want their kids taught anything else. They're in denial because they don't want to think about their kids having sex.

So we're treating the symptoms of poor education, the outcomes after the fact. Just go to the roots and you'll cut way down on both abortions and measles.

 

[Cheetah]

in general I think vaccination is a great thing and I will most definitely vacc my kids if it ever gets to that point, but just like with modern medicine I personally will always try to let my body handle it himself, to not fall into the pits off "an aspirin is harmless" (it isn't, at all) and generally treat the topic pretty seriously. I care what goes into my body

I'm with you on the aspirin-thought. I try to limit my use of painkillers as much as possible. But we don't use vaccines for stuff that your body can easily handle itself. I'd say the vaccines you get are much safer than aspirin.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I'm with you on the aspirin-thought. I try to limit my use of painkillers as much as possible. But we don't use vaccines for stuff that your body can easily handle itself. I'd say the vaccines you get are much safer than aspirin.

agreed on all points. vaccines are almost always (not always, think flu shots) used for issues that our body cannot handle itself, which is why they're one of the very few mandatory forms of modern medicine.

I'm pretty proud to say that I've never in my entire life taken any antibiotics, have only been to the hospital once (it wasn't serious) and have never broken a bone. I never go to the doctor aside from my asthma medication. pretty much all of my problems I can take care of via nutrition/exercise/herbal remedies

religious anti-vaxxers just ruin it for everyone involved. people like that, self declared "healers", new-age eggheads and the likes give the more traditional medicines like fasting, herbal remedies, medicinal baths, oils, teas, foods a bad rep and it's a shame.

So what you're saying is we need a vaccine preventing pregnancy. Get these anti vaxers and pro lifers on the same page.

The issue with all of it boils down to educated. I don't know a single person who objects to vaccinations for religious reasons or any reasons really other than erroneous fear. They still think vaccines can cause autism or other issues, or make you sick, or are just bad for you for reasons they can't explain. They're usually the same people who are on gulten free diets cus gulten is terrible for you don't you know, and generally they go all organic, non gmo too, and do things like turn off their wifi at home during the night to reduce their cancer risk.

Similarly, many pro lifers seem to think abstinence is the only form of birth control and thus don't want their kids taught anything else. They're in denial because they don't want to think about their kids having sex.

So we're treating the symptoms of poor education, the outcomes after the fact. Just go to the roots and you'll cut way down on both abortions and measles.

thanks for proving my point. and I love how you lump all the people you dislike into one amorphous blob. I can cite statistical evidence that vaxxination can go wrong and you'll still spout the same "I'm smart everyone else is dumb and anti-science" rhetoric. vaxxination is one of the greatest advancements of manking, undoubtedly, that does not mean that people don't regularly suffer or even die from vaxxines. those incidents, while incredibly rare, happen.

I even agree with your conclusion that lack of education is the fundamental problem for both these issues..

 

[Lexicus]

I'm pretty proud to say that I've never in my entire life taken any antibiotics,

Why is that a point of pride? I'd likely be dead if I hadn't gotten antibiotics when I had bacterial pneumonia when I was 10...should I be ashamed?

 

[Farm Boy]

The herd immunity system can accommodate a certain percentage of people who gain the benefits without bearing the risks of (incredibly rare) burden which their peers take on. But it doesn't take many of them to get heavy enough to break it. My parents felt the pricks of polio vaccination and watched the iron lungs disappear, not because those who were sick were cured, but because their parents said that no more generations shall so suffer. They can barely hide their contempt at the selfishness they perceive. I have a hard time faulting them their judgement.

Now there's a conversation to be had regarding which vaccination, they're not all equal. Not in the risk they impose and not in the ill they seek to prevent.

 

[Cheetah]

[...]

1.
What's with the X-es? It makes you look like the twelve year-old who used to write «Micro$oft» back in the 90's.

2.
If you've never been afflicted with a bacterial infection which required antibiotics, then good for you. It's nothing to take pride in, however. You've simply been lucky.

3.
If you're otherwise healthy then that's great, but advocating «herbal remedies» as a reason behind it is... less than convincing. Same for the other «traditional» ways to be healthy.

4.

I can cite statistical evidence that vaxxination can go wrong [...] does not mean that people don't regularly suffer or even die from vaxxines. those incidents, while incredibly rare, happen.

«Incredibly rare» is the opposite of «regularly». Vaccines are incredibly safe, and any statistics you can cite will show that they're one of the safest medical treatments we have.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you've never been afflicted with a bacterial infection which required antibiotics, then good for you. It's nothing to take pride in, however. You've simply been lucky.

Being somewhat of a jerk I might have said sheltered instead of lucky. Having spent most of fifty years in a constant state of cut, scraped, jabbed by various spiny things, bitten by various toothy things, and bounced across the planet willy nilly in order to meet all of the available germs I have tried every antibiotic known to man and looked for new ones.

 

[Farm Boy]

"Willy nilly"

I use that one verbally, too.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Why is that a point of pride? I'd likely be dead if I hadn't gotten antibiotics when I had bacterial pneumonia when I was 10...should I be ashamed?

I've simply been lucky all my life with illness/genetics, but I also haven't taken antibiotics lightly, which many people do, and that awareness, that antibiotics are actually pretty severe in their effectivity and should be considered prescription-worthy medication, is what I'm proud of. countless doctors in both Europe and the US prescribe antibiotics like they're candy to people who don't actually need them (unlike you, or anyone else with a serious bacterial infection). I've genuinely seen doctors prescribe antibiotics preemptively "you know, in case something happens, but it's not really necessary". this has nothing to do with them being bad or their effectiveness or anything of the likes, which I've never questioned in the slightest.

1.
What's with the X-es? It makes you look like the twelve year-old who used to write «Micro$oft» back in the 90's.

2.
If you've never been afflicted with a bacterial infection which required antibiotics, then good for you. It's nothing to take pride in, however. You've simply been lucky.

3.
If you're otherwise healthy then that's great, but advocating «herbal remedies» as a reason behind it is... less than convincing. Same for the other «traditional» ways to be healthy.

4.

«Incredibly rare» is the opposite of «regularly». Vaccines are incredibly safe, and any statistics you can cite will show that they're one of the safest medical treatments we have.

1 no need to be a dick about it, English isn't my first language and I simply got the c and x confused. flaming someone for his language use makes you look like a teen, if anything. this is an international board.

2 fully agreed, in fact that's all I meant to say

3 ...? all I meant to say is that I don't always take to pills when I have a cold, or a sore throat, or a headache, and that there are non-pharmaceutical treatment methods for a bunch of physical and psychological ills. if you take offense with that I don't even know what to say.

4) you literally just said the same thing I did and framed it as a counter argument. how desperate are you for a fight? I stated in my own post that vaccines are safe and that the chance that something goes wrong is incredibly slim.

by the way, people "suffer" from vaccination all the time, in the form of rashes, feeling unwell, swellings, and the likes, which is what I meant with "regularly", but it pretty much never comes to "serious" problems, which is what I referred to when I said "incredibly slim". my argument was not incoherent at all, you just lacked reading comprehension.

thanks for the dumb and needless antagonism and the unwarranted hostility, much appreciated. next time try picking an actual target instead of fighting windmills, or worse, people that agree with you.

thanks also for proving my point, that you'll readily ostracize anyone who says something even remotely critical of modern medicine, even though I am clearly in support of it.

 

[Cheetah]

1 no need to be a dick about it, English isn't my first language and I simply got the c and x confused. flaming someone for his language use makes you look like a teen, if anything. this is an international board.

Hm. I apologize then. I might have read you in a much harsher light than you deserved. Sorry about that.

The way you misspelled «vaccine» simply triggered enough warning flags that I mistook you for someone who's trying to sneak in anti-vaccination arguments.

English-speakers who spell vaccines as «vaxxines» are more or less always dangerously anti-vaccination. See for instance r/VaxxHappened for more examples...

Edit:
I'm just going to apologize again. Now that I'm looking for it I'm struggling to find any examples of anti-vaccination people who spell it as «vaxx», but plenty of anti-anti-vaccination people who spell it as «vaxx».

 

[Farm Boy]

Sneaking in anti-vaccination arguments is a bridge too far. Still more into forthright adversarial euthanasia arguments?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

"Willy nilly"

I use that one verbally, too.

Do you think we might be...well...old?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

- granting free healthcare, so a woman doesn't have to worry about how just delivering her child is going to ruin her financially
- providing free post-secondary education, so a woman doesn't have to worry how she's going to afford a baby and continue her education
- making sure women have proper and real maternity leave, so she doesn't have to worry about her career ending
- giving support for food and childcare, so she doesn't have to fear her child will stave

- Free healthcare is impossible, someone pays.
- Same for education
^ both of these handled by the government will be a joke in terms of efficiency.
- Maternity leave is valid and should happen
- How do people feed themselves generally?

All that said, I support the right to abortions generally. It's not a good situation to be in a position to want one, but I don't see why the state should mandate a bad situation become worse at everybody's expense.

I'm not big on 3rd trimester since at that point you have a viable child, could in principle be put up for adoption...I suppose the country could be cold-blooded about that too though. I'd be interested in what functions best policy wise.

And I hate when I see men saying "It's your fault for getting pregnant," because no, it's not. All unwanted pregnancies are men's fault, for quite a few reasons.

Quoted assertion is off from reality. If a women isn't raped, she has responsibility for the pregnancy just like the man...and more control of what happens after that. The latter is reasonable, but to claim no responsibility here is fantasy.

- Men lie to women, pretending to use birth control but then removing it half way through

Women do this too, and can claim child support on it. People who do this should see significant jail time if it could be reliably caught, but I'm not sure how you'd enforce it.

Anyway abstinence is a 100% guarantee barring violent crime, let's not pretend like it's not an option.

So off we go, IN IDAHO, to get this voluntary surgery. In order to get this done we (yes, we) were required to attend three counseling sessions, where among other things my wife was directly asked if she thought it was fair, given the high divorce rates, that if our marriage ended I would be unable to father children with some future wife.

That was asinine. Do they still harass people this way now? I suppose it wouldn't surprise me if it's worse.

The reality is that the company and the employee can easily come up with ways to maintain contact and currency of knowledge throughout a leave if they cooperate in doing so.

I've seen this done pretty well actually.

 

[Farm Boy]

Do you think we might be...well...old?

You can be if you want to be, dad.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You can be if you want to be, dad.

Thank you son, that was exactly the permission I was fishing for.

That was asinine. Do they still harass people this way now? I suppose it wouldn't surprise me if it's worse.

I have no knowledge, since I have not set foot in Idaho since making my escape...but it wouldn't surprise me in the least either.

 

[Farm Boy]

Wanna go ride bikes?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Wanna go ride bikes?

No, but we can toss the ball around if you want.