The advantage of a Monarchy

otago

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The advantage of a Monarchy
It was amusing to hear people who criticised Bush/Obama as being unpatriotic, in the UK and other realms it is seen as being patriotic to criticise the PM and other ministers.
For they are just the hired help .


The Crown persists in the UK (and 15 other Commonwealth Realms that have voluntarily kept the shared monarch) for several reasons.
1. The Crown separates patriotism from politics. No British politician has ever been accused of being unpatriotic when they criticise a Prime Minister. Something that often happens in the US.
2. The Prime Minister may be master of the political landscape and have the power to fire nuclear weapons, but authority for that power is vested in the Crown and the Constitution, not in him. He may issue orders but it is still considered “advice” that the Crown is bound to act on.
He must address the Queen and senior members of the royal family as Your Majesty, Your Royal Highness, Ma’am, or Sir. He gets’ a townhouse and a small country retreat, while the Royal Family has multiple palaces. And while the Queen is first in precedence at all state occasions, the Prime Minister comes in 19th. It teaches humility to politicians, who are not noted for their humility.
3. The Crown makes Prime Ministers and cabinet members disposable. Because a President is both Head of State (symbolic leader of the nation) and Head of Government (in charge of running the government). They are very difficult to get rid of when scandal hits. Had Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton been Prime Ministers they would have been dumped in a matter of weeks instead of dragging the issue out for months.
And while a King is difficult to force out, when push comes to shove an unsuitable King has been forced out, twice, in 1688 and 1936.
4. What is now the UK had a republic. Parliament killed King Charles I and established Cromwell as Lord Protector (effectively President-for-Life). England was mired in war and became a military dictatorship until the Restoration. Not a good record.



Objections based on egalitarianism ("no one should be raised above anyone else") are also not germane: every nation or state will have an head of state, even in cases such as the Swiss Confederation where the headship of state is exercised collectively. Simply by virtue of their office the head of state is "raised above" other citizens: this is inherent in the function.

That leaves two serious questions, which shouldn't be conflated but usually are. The first is the superiority of systems which distinguish between the roles of head of state and head of government over systems which conflate the two roles. The second is whether, among systems which divide the two roles, a hereditary head of state is superior to one who is elected or selected.

The argument for separating the two roles (which, recall, makes up the greater part of the case made by the OP) is clear enough but unfamiliar to Americans. Almost all systems which divide the roles allocate the functional executive duty to a democratically-elected political leader, while confiding the ceremonial and representative duty to a "figurehead".

The only real question in this case is whether executive power should better be entrusted to the same person exercising ceremonial or representational power. Because, increasingly in a media-saturated age, ceremony or representation is power (see under "Riefenstahl, Leni" for extreme examples).

It seems clear that one reason the American presidency has increased in power in the modern age, since Roosevelt's innovation of the "fireside chat", is its greater ability to wield the ceremonial and representational powers of the office. One clear argument in favor of separating the roles of heads of state and of government is to deprive one political faction of this undue advantage over their competitors: in our media-driven age, allowing the leader of one party to increase his standing by wearing a second hat as symbolic head of the nation, by for instance presiding over military funerals or greeting sailors on the flightdeck of aircraft carriers, is an unfair and possibly dangerous way of warping the democratic process.

But if the argument for separating the roles is accepted, then one must confront the next question: which is better, an elected ceremonial headship of state, such as the Irish or Italian presidency, or an hereditary headship, such as the Danish or Spanish monarchies. The arguments typically break down as follows: raising an individual above all other citizens to be ceremonial head of state by election is more faithful to the democratic principles of modern Western society.

The problem is that in a system with divided headship, the office of head of state is not only ceremonial. It is also responsible for some hopefully rare but crucial tasks, usually involving a mediating or "umpire" role, and in any ultimate crisis, as the last defense of constitutional government.

In other words, in addition to ceremonially representing the state or nation, the head of state is also charged in most Western democracies with a crisis-management role when all other safety-valves fail. In the words of a Canadian senator and constitutional scholar, the ceremonial head of state is a fire-extinguisher: most of the time, it's simply a shiny, brightly-painted object which is mounted for all to see, but if the house should ever catch fire you need it desperately.

On this last point, the argument is also clear enough: elected ceremonial heads of state rarely have the moral authority to act successfully in a profound crisis, while recent history provides several examples of constitutional "figurehead" monarchs doing exactly that: King Juan Carlos of Spain's personal intervention against the Francoist coup d'etat in 1981, for example. There have been a few elected ceremonial presidents who have gained the moral authority to carry out such an act, but for the most part their authority is diminished by the fact of their election rather than enhanced.

Therefore, setting aside silly things like whether King George VI ate hotdogs, the real issues in this question are whether separating the ceremonial and executive roles in government is a good idea, and if so, how to select the ceremonial head. In my opinion, separating ceremonial "media power" from executive power is a crucial check on government: in fact, in the modern age, much more important than any of the now-archaic checks on executive power built into America's aging constitution. And on the subsidiary question of how best to select a ceremonial head of state, the residual "constitutional emergency" powers exercised by most Western heads of state decides the question in favor of the greater moral authority (not to mention often longer experience) of a hereditary head over an elected one.
 
I can see you've put some thought into this.

But my distaste for monarchy is visceral. And no amount of argument is going to persuade me.

Look at the history of the so-called English monarchy. They're a bunch of gangsters.
 
Oh right? Now I'm disappointed, where previously, not two minutes ago, I was impressed.
 
The internet may be the greatest archive of human recording ever, but it has apparently destroyed our sense of history. Everything old is new again and again and again because we apparently forget so soon. This site uses Google as a search agent, but what about searching your heart?
 
3. The Crown makes Prime Ministers and cabinet members disposable. Because a President is both Head of State (symbolic leader of the nation) and Head of Government (in charge of running the government). They are very difficult to get rid of when scandal hits. Had Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton been Prime Ministers they would have been dumped in a matter of weeks instead of dragging the issue out for months.

Actually, most democratic countries separate head of state from head of government. The US is an exception in this regard. So that's nothing exclusive to monarchies....
 
Actually, most democratic countries separate head of state from head of government. The US is an exception in this regard. So that's nothing exclusive to monarchies....

Election does sort of make the office of president in parliamentary republics politicised, which is an disadvantage constitutional monarchs do not have. Politicians by their very definition assume office through political conflicts, whether these are elections, wars, intrigues or military coups. A hereditary monarch - even if it wields political power - is not a politician. Judges in independent judiciaries are not politicians either.

Hey... maybe we should make the executive and legislative power completely subordinate to the judicial power.
 
which is better, an elected ceremonial headship of state, such as the Irish or Italian presidency, or an hereditary headship, such as the Danish or Spanish monarchies.
Let me start from an example that I happen to know well. :)
The role of an Italian president is not only ceremonial: his role is to be the guarantor of Italian constitution.
His job (apart representing the unity the country, etc.) is to have oversight on the operations of parliament, government, and judiciary, to make sure none of the them stray away from the rules defined by the constitution.
He has power of veto for laws and power to disallow a specific prime minister and/or call new elections.

The good points about having a president instead of a queen/king is that the state doesn't have the burden to pay to support a large family of people in luxury.
Even more important if it happens that a "bad" president gets elected, you can get rid of him without any fuss after his mandate is over... and learning from experience you will elect a better one.

To get rid of a "bad" monarch is more complicated, even if abdication can be requested, it's tricky to enact... and you can be so unlucky that the legitimate successor will be nothing better.

I agree with you that in time of crisis a monarch must be the moral guide for the country (example British monarchs during WWII or Norwegian Monarch in the same time).
However it's a random event to have the right monarch at the right time.
The monarch is not selected but he happen to be.
A president is selected and hopefully selected wisely to be able to be the moral guide of the country in times of trouble.

Italy again is a good example of a country that happened to have the wrong monarch at a time of crisis.
The Italian king is the one who allowed Mussolini to become dictator of Italy, and the same person who cowardly betrayed the country at the end of the war (looking at his own survival and letting the country without a guide and let it fall in a de-facto civil war).

With this example I want to say that a monarchy has a built-in risk to have the wrong person in a role of power and moral guidance.
 
Those sound like sensible arguments, but strange women lying around in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

I am most chiefly drawn to the notion of the head of state and head of government being seperated. I wonder if any of the founding fathers ever bandied such an idea around? Possibly Adams, as he retained admiration for the British constitution. I am increasingly convinced of the importance of ritual to humans, and divorcing the president from his status as HoS would make sharp criticism of him easier, especially if the 'monarch' strived for impartiality, deliberately holding him/herself above politics. Washington and Adams tried for that magisterial presence, but because they were running the actual government it didn't work so well. (Washington had a little luck, but he was Washington, and possibly magic.)

How would a 'monarch' work in America, ideologically committed to equality and democracy? We'd never tolerate a Royal Family, though the Bushes are trying to be so. What if they were appointed by the senate to serve for life, with a new Statesman being chosen at the preceding one's death?
 
4. What is now the UK had a republic. Parliament killed King Charles I and established Cromwell as Lord Protector (effectively President-for-Life). England was mired in war and became a military dictatorship until the Restoration. Not a good record.

Sample size 1, Monarchy > Republicanism, case closed! :mischief:
 
Objections based on egalitarianism ("no one should be raised above anyone else") are also not germane: every nation or state will have an head of state, even in cases such as the Swiss Confederation where the headship of state is exercised collectively. Simply by virtue of their office the head of state is "raised above" other citizens: this is inherent in the function.

You don't understand the issue. The issue is that certain people in a monarchy are put on top of the population, not by merit, but by birth. Obviously the children of the extremely wealthy do have many advantages that their less-affluent peers lack, but to have a government endorse one family's superiority over everyone else rubs some people the wrong way - and rightfully so.

2. The Prime Minister may be master of the political landscape and have the power to fire nuclear weapons, but authority for that power is vested in the Crown and the Constitution, not in him. He may issue orders but it is still considered “advice” that the Crown is bound to act on.
He must address the Queen and senior members of the royal family as Your Majesty, Your Royal Highness, Ma’am, or Sir. He gets’ a townhouse and a small country retreat, while the Royal Family has multiple palaces. And while the Queen is first in precedence at all state occasions, the Prime Minister comes in 19th. It teaches humility to politicians, who are not noted for their humility.

Since it seems like you're mainly interested in the monarchy vs. the American system of government, it might interest you to know that our president is addressed as "Mr. President" so as to not inflate his ego to that of a god.

Now, on the other hand, while your PM gets humbled by calling the monarch "Your Majesty," does that not inflate the ego of the monarch? Of course it does! But you might say, "who cares, the Queen doesn't affect legislation," but I ask you, has one of the POTUSes ever done something corrupt solely because of their inflated ego that results directly from the head of state?

I'd hazard to say no.

3. The Crown makes Prime Ministers and cabinet members disposable. Because a President is both Head of State (symbolic leader of the nation) and Head of Government (in charge of running the government). They are very difficult to get rid of when scandal hits. Had Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton been Prime Ministers they would have been dumped in a matter of weeks instead of dragging the issue out for months.
And while a King is difficult to force out, when push comes to shove an unsuitable King has been forced out, twice, in 1688 and 1936.

I would say it's quite telling that the most powerful man in the world at the time was forced to step down from office without a single shot being fired. And if American politics were as fluid as British politics apparently are, then Harry Truman would've been sacked. Much like how Churchhill was kicked out of the PM spot after WWII.

The argument for separating the two roles (which, recall, makes up the greater part of the case made by the OP) is clear enough but unfamiliar to Americans.

Yes, yes, Americans are barbaric and unworldly. How right you are!

It seems clear that one reason the American presidency has increased in power in the modern age, since Roosevelt's innovation of the "fireside chat", is its greater ability to wield the ceremonial and representational powers of the office. One clear argument in favor of separating the roles of heads of state and of government is to deprive one political faction of this undue advantage over their competitors: in our media-driven age, allowing the leader of one party to increase his standing by wearing a second hat as symbolic head of the nation, by for instance presiding over military funerals or greeting sailors on the flightdeck of aircraft carriers, is an unfair and possibly dangerous way of warping the democratic process.

You're going to have to give examples. Do you suppose that very many Americans vote for the incumbent President solely because he's the incumbent? You're going to have to provide sources for that one, I'm afraid.
 
Isn't it a little ridiculous for people who think that monarchies are a-okay to be calling other people "elitist" and "arrogant"?
 
I wasn't calling HIM that, just his position that disagreeing with him must be interpreted as not understanding the issue. IO apologize if I was unclear and you thought I was referring to Mango himself rather than his position.
 
The advantage of a Monarchy
4. What is now the UK had a republic. Parliament killed King Charles I and established Cromwell as Lord Protector (effectively President-for-Life). England was mired in war and became a military dictatorship until the Restoration. Not a good record.

Oh man, you for sure won now! I mean, you cannot be serious about this argument right here.
 
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