The Dark Side of Winston Churchill (that you've never been told)

[Berzerker]

morality aint relative

fight fire with fire

 

[lordsurya08]

morality aint relative

fight fire with fire

Was that supposed to be trolling, or a ridiculous misinterpretation of Gandhi's nonviolent tactics as "fire"?

 

[Berzerker]

no...

 

[woody60707]

I haven't heard much dirt on FDR, do please enlighten me.
...

How does the blatant racism of putting 150,000 innocent american citizens in concentration camps on US soil for just being the wrong color skin as not much dirt in the history books? What kind of school system is California running?

And PS. The US supreme court up held the constitutionality of Executive Order 9066. So taking little kids out of school and locking them in some camp in the middle of the desert is still the Law of the Land in the US.

 

[Maniacal]

Yes, actually, I did know he was a die-hard imperialist. Gandhi was also a racist too, he hated black Africans.

 

[ZeletDude]

America never did anything wrong..
Only you know the massive killings of Native Americans, American-Philippine war.. etc..

 

[Lord of Elves]

Was that supposed to be trolling, or a ridiculous misinterpretation of Gandhi's nonviolent tactics as "fire"?

Believe it or not, it was actually Churchill's job as Prime Minister to act for British interests. Among those interests were the maintenance of administration over India.

 

[Tahuti]

How does the blatant racism of putting 150,000 innocent american citizens in concentration camps on US soil for just being the wrong color skin as not much dirt in the history books? What kind of school system is California running?

And PS. The US supreme court up held the constitutionality of Executive Order 9066. So taking little kids out of school and locking them in some camp in the middle of the desert is still the Law of the Land in the US.

Funny thing of the Japanese internment was, that Japanese people in Hawaii weren't affected in any way by it. Some even served in the US military.

On the other hand, the whole Japanese internment thing might have been out of consideration for popular sentiment (i.e., not doing so would mean dissent) and in that case, the ignorance of the average man would be to blame as well.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I'm pretty sure that suggesting "Keep England White" as an election slogan in 1955 qualifies as reactionary and racist even by the standards of the time. It should be possible to acknowledge that good and great people had character flaws that can't simply be dismissed as the products of their time.

I'd also add that maaaybe the 1945 election suggested Churchill's views cannot be ascribed to the whole of Britain.

 

[Theige]

How does the blatant racism of putting 150,000 innocent american citizens in concentration camps on US soil for just being the wrong color skin as not much dirt in the history books? What kind of school system is California running?

And PS. The US supreme court up held the constitutionality of Executive Order 9066. So taking little kids out of school and locking them in some camp in the middle of the desert is still the Law of the Land in the US.

It was also done because 3 Japanese people, including two American citizens born in the U.S., aided a downed Japanese pilot on a small Hawaiian island called Nihau. All 3 of them helped the pilot, and they were the only 3 japs on the island.

 

[Luckymoose]

Everything in bold in the OP is something I agree with.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Regarding the OP, this is what typically happens when you try to idolize mere humans.

"A man who kills on his own is a murderer. A man who kills at his government's request is a national hero." Ramman Kenoun

Funny thing of the Japanese internment was, that Japanese people in Hawaii weren't affected in any way by it. Some even served in the US military.

That isn't completely true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese-American_internment

Japanese-American internment was the relocation and internment by the United States government in 1942 of approximately 110,000 Japanese Americans and Japanese who lived along the Pacific coast of the United States to camps called "War Relocation Camps," in the wake of Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.[1][2] The internment of Japanese Americans was applied unequally throughout the United States. Japanese Americans who lived on the West Coast of the United States were all interned, while in Hawaii, where more than 150,000 Japanese Americans composed over one-third of the territory's population, 1,200[3] to 1,800 Japanese Americans were interned.[4] Of those interned, 62% were American citizens.[5][6]

I imagine it was because it was virtually impossible to intern 1/3rd of the population.

It was also done because 3 Japanese people, including two American citizens born in the U.S., aided a downed Japanese pilot on a small Hawaiian island called Nihau. All 3 of them helped the pilot, and they were the only 3 japs on the island.

And as I already pointed out in different thread, that incident was a very minor aspect of the overall decision-making process which had actually begun years before. Claiming it was the primary reason is disingenuous at best, although I'm sure it was used as a talking point by at least some of the racists back then.

 

[Tahuti]

I'd also add that maaaybe the 1945 election suggested Churchill's views cannot be ascribed to the whole of Britain.

That doesn't explain why Churchill eventually got re-elected and led Britain during the Mau-Mau war.

 

[Flying Pig]

How does the blatant racism of putting 150,000 innocent american citizens in concentration camps on US soil for just being the wrong color skin as not much dirt in the history books? What kind of school system is California running?.

Racism here justified (in principle at least) - if your father's Japanese and the country is at war with Japan, your loyalties will at least be called into question. The execution of that principle and the fact that many of the implementers used the excuse to simply lock up anyone yellow is more a comment on the officials than the President, although maybe he went a little over the top with teh whole internment camps thing - although we British did it to those of German and Austrian descent. Concentration camp, given the standards being set elsewhere in the world at the same time, is however a word misleading to the point of dishonesty.

That doesn't explain why Churchill eventually got re-elected and led Britain during the Mau-Mau war.

War? Emergency, dear boy. The insurers don't pay for wars.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Racism here justified (in principle at least) - if your father's Japanese and the country is at war with Japan, your loyalties will at least be called into question.

And what about nationality? Should the US have interned all the German-Americans?



I don't think it is ever justified, even when many German-Americans were openly supporting the Nazis. After all, so did Henry Ford.

Concentration camp, given the standards being set elsewhere in the world at the same time, is however a word misleading to the point of dishonesty.

The phrase was first used in exactly that manner, including the use of it to describe the camps set up by the British for Boer women and children in South Africa. The current connotation really arose from the Nazi concentration camps.

 

[Flying Pig]

And what about nationality? Should the US have interned all the German-Americans?



I don't think it is ever justified, even when many German-Americans were openly supporting the Nazis.

Remember that the USA was under no threat of invasion; Britain very much was fighting for its very existance and freedom for much of the war. More drastic measures were called for here and I support them.

The phrase was first used in exactly that manner, including the use of it to describe the camps set up by the British for Boer women and children in South Africa, itself a translation of the Spanish term used for their camps in the Philippines. The current connotation really arose from the Nazi concentration camps.

Bolding mine for pedancy.

Of course, you're correct. However the important thing is that nowadays it is so linked in with Auschwitz and the like that to use it to describe a British or American camp is disingenous.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Remember that the USA was under no threat of invasion; Britain very much was fighting for its very existance and freedom for much of the war. More drastic measures were called for here and I support them.

I had not realized that GB had its own dark history in this regard:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWgermansBR.htm

Germans in Britain

In 1930 there were about 20,000 people from Germany living in Britain. This number increased after Adolf Hitler gained power in 1933. It is estimated that around 60,000 German refugees entered Britain in the years leading up to the outbreak of the Second World War. These were mainly Jews and left-wing opponents of Hitler who had escaped from Nazi Germany.

In September 1939, the police arrested a large number of Germans living in Britain. The government feared that these people might be Nazi spies pretending to be refugees. They were interned and held in various camps all over Britain. Like other refugees they were eventually appeared before tribunals which classified them into three different groups. 'A' class aliens were interned, whereas 'B' class aliens were allowed to leave the camps but had certain restrictions placed upon their movements. The vast majority of refugees were identified as 'C' class aliens and were allowed to go free.

On 12th May, 1940, John Anderson, who was in charge of national security, ordered the arrests of over 2,000 male aliens living in coastal areas. A few days later all 'B' class aliens were rounded up and placed into internment camps. Winston Churchill defended this policy by claiming that it was necessary to "collar the lot".

The Daily Mail, a newspaper that had supported Oswald Mosley and the British Union of Fascists in the 1930s, now led a campaign to have all aliens in Britain interned. Some employers began to sack all foreigners. There were even cases of people losing their jobs because they had foreign ancestors. As one critic of this policy pointed out, this was an argument for removing the British royal family as their ancestors had originally come from Germany. (George V changed the name of the royal family from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor as a result of anti-German feeling during the First World War).

Government bodies also became involved in carrying out acts of discrimination against foreigners. Some local authorities turned aliens out of council houses. The Home Guard rejected applications from men with alien parentage or origin. In one case, an English soldier who had won the Victoria Cross during the First World War, was turned down when he tried to join the Home Guard because of his "alien parentage".

The three largest internment camps were at Wharf Mills (Bury), Huyton (Liverpool) and on the Isle of Man. Others were sent to the prisons at Brixton and Holloway and to a camps at Kempton Park Racecourse. At Brixton several Jewish refugees were beaten up by interned members of the British Union of Fascists.

The conditions in these internment camps were often appalling. In some camps refugees and foreign aliens were housed in tents without mattresses. Men and women were sent to different camps and so husband and wives were separated. Internees were refused to right to read newspapers, listen to the radio or to receive letters. They were therefore unable to discover what had happened to family members. Several refugees who had fled to England to avoid persecution in Nazi Germany committed suicide in these camps.

A couple of members of the House of Commons complained about the treatment of refugees in these camps. Peter Cazalet, who had carried out research into this topic, ended his speech with the words: "Frankly, I shall not feel happy, either as an Englishman or as a supporter of this Government, until this bespattered page of our history has been cleaned up and rewritten."

H. G. Wells joined the campaign and accused the Home Office of being run by Nazi sympathisers. He pointed out that a large number of those interned had a long record of being involved in the struggle against fascism in Germany and Italy.

A decision was taken at the War Cabinet to export these internees to Canada and Australia. A total of 7,500 men were selected to be moved. The Duchess of York was the first to sail, with 2,500 internees to Canada; twice her normal capacity for passengers. On 2nd July, 1940, he second of these ships, the Arandora Star, carrying 1,571 German and Italian internees to Canada, was torpedoed and sunk off the west coast of Ireland, with the loss of 682 lives.

The government was unrepentant. At the inquiry that followed, a government spokesman, the Duke of Devonshire, justified the decision to deport the refugees to the Dominions with the words: "It seemed desirable both to husband our resources and get rid of useless mouths and so forth." Critics pointed out that one solution to this problem was to put the refugees to work.

I love how H.G. Wells accused the Home Office of being Nazis themselves for deliberately persecuting victims of Nazi Germany. Great stuff. Our countries are so inexorably linked together by our common culture.

 

[RedRalph]

Sent a gunboat to bomb my home city to bits too

 

[Flying Pig]

I had not realized that GB had its own dark history in this regard:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWgermansBR.htm

I love how H.G. Wells accused the Home Office of being Nazis themselves for deliberately persecuting victims of Nazi Germany. Great stuff. Our countries are so inexorably linked together by our common culture.

It is quite ironic that many of the people that ended up being interned really hated the Germans, but as I said we were fighting for our freedom and came quite clsoe to losing it - drastic measures were taken and accepted over here that would be draconian anywhere else or in peacetime. War isn't fun.

 

[Theige]

And as I already pointed out in different thread, that incident was a very minor aspect of the overall decision-making process which had actually begun years before. Claiming it was the primary reason is disingenuous at best, although I'm sure it was used as a talking point by at least some of the racists back then.

Years, before?