The end of Religion is inevitable?

[Lexicus]

A lot of the comments here seem to me to oversimplify the experience of religious people by presupposing that religion doesn't enrich one's experience of this life, that believers are somehow forgoing something else better that they could be doing with this life on the promise (by the oppressive priestly caste) that if they do that, they will be rewarded with better circumstances in the afterlife.

This is certainly the case for the ascetic strains of various sects, and has been for, what, 3500 years or so? I'm not sure of the earliest example of religious asceticism, it probably predates our earliest evidence of it considerably. Not every religious person is an ascetic, obviously.

Edited to add: i'm mot endorsing the "oppressive priestly caste" line, there is some truth to that but it is a simple appealing story for the New Atheists (rather the way they view religion itself) more than it is true.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Right, so if that's a wash, then I'm going with the guy who said "I have come that they might have life, and have it in greater abundance."

And if everyone was like him we wouldn't have any problems. The issue is that every time you have some lever that can be pulled to manipulate people someone will try to pull it for good or ill. That's just human nature. And equally, human nature being what it is, its far more likely to be for ill.

Thus we must be willing to accept this and learn how to recognize the sings of people doing it to us and others so as to protect our self from the ill while exploiting the benefits of the good. And naturally, we must also remember that good and ill are two sides of the same coin. And that some times the best way to do this is therefore to make sure that it lands our way.

 

[Gori the Grey]

This is certainly the case for the ascetic strains of various sects, and has been for, what, 3500 years or so? I'm not sure of the earliest example of religious asceticism, it probably predates our earliest evidence of it considerably.

That is true. And even my own practice of Christianity has certain ascetic strains. Crazy thing is I tend to discover that those supposed renunciations actually also enrich (maybe that can't be the word any more) my present life. I give up some form of worldliness (that's become my favored word for it) and I end up happier as a result. I never do them as a quid pro quo in the first place (if I give this up now, I'll go to heaven eventually) because there's a deep Pauline strain in my Christianity (solus Christus to the reformers) that says that nothing I can do is meritorious toward my own salvation. So the only realm in which such renunciations could benefit me is this one. I don't think I'll ever become a hard-core ascetic because another strain in my Christianity is the belief that God is bounteous and wants us to have and enjoy good things. But insofar as I do engage in it, I find the benefits in this life.

and @PPQ_Purple, I don't disagree with any of that.

 

[Core Imposter]

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[Lexicus]

because there's a deep Pauline strain in my Christianity (solus Christus to the reformers) that says that nothing I can do is meritorious toward my own salvation.

So who do you believe is saved, and who not?

So the only realm in which such renunciations could benefit me is this one.

This also raises the point that there are plenty of entirely secular reasons for asceticism, though the degree to which these are 'ghosts of dead religious beliefs' is debatable.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Well, I don't really concern myself with that question. I don't presume to make judgments on other people's spiritual status. And I don't know that I myself will die in a state of grace, so I don't presume to know my own ultimate spiritual status.

This also raises the point that there are plenty of entirely secular reasons for asceticism, though the degree to which these are 'ghosts of dead religious beliefs' is debatable.

To be clear, I'm not trying to make a case for Christianity, or religion generally, as being the only, or even the best way of achieving some of these things. My very narrow focus was to contest the characterization of religious people as motivated only by some afterlife reward. There are some rewards in this life.

 

[Birdjaguar]

the need to belong and to explain

This explains much/most of what we need to know about humans.

 

[Joij21]

Not at all. Here is a link to a prfetty good synopsis of HInduism. Hinduism is ~2000 years older than christianity. Buddhism is about 500 years older than christianity.. Over those long histories, just like christianity, they have undergone changes and schisms.and the appearance of many sects.

That's not what I meant. I meant it could be dangerous to plan your life around actually believing in reincarnation only for it to turn out we just die and only live once. Then depending on how believing in something that's not true affected one's life choices, you may end up not living as full and complete of a life as someone who is atheist and chooses not to alter their life (and potentially limit it) for non existent phenomena.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That's not what I meant. I meant it could be dangerous to plan your life around actually believing in reincarnation only for it to turn out we just die and only live once. Then depending on how believing in something that's not true affected one's life choices, you may end up not living as full and complete of a life as someone who is atheist and chooses not to alter their life (and potentially limit it) for non existent phenomena.

All those who "plan their life" do so around something that they assume i mostly true. The actual truth of what happens after death is unknown. I would suggest that most of us will be surprised if we have some next step exitence whatever it is. What is a full and complete life? Can it be defined only one way? How much can one even plan a life? I have seen lots of events in my life and almost all of those that brought about significant change were unplanned.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

For example, I would argue that the western social justice and environmentalist movements have reached the point of being a religion

Whut?

There is no "environmentalist movement" that's all one identical view. And for anyone who preaches the completely and absolute end of single-use plastic items, for instance, I guess those people must be willing to forego modern medical treatment.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Conservative Christians make a great effort to tag every secular line of thinking as a religion. They do that so they can say "See you are just like us."

 

[Moriarte]

What is a full and complete life?

Maybe it is a life that understands that the chance we get, this life, is the only life we have. In the end one gets a final psychedelic trip, lights go out, and then one stops having subjective experiences.. A person who realises that life after death is a sweet, convenient, calming lie will tend to not postpone and instead do things in this life. He or she will live a life as if This is the only life, while having no unreasonable expectations in relation to "accrued sins/good deeds leading to damnation/salvation". They will tend to procrastinate less, because there isn't heaven or karmic cycle or whatever else promised behind the curtain.

Most importantly, seeing reality as it is enables fuller understanding of it, perhaps not immediately, but sometime in the future, when we get there on the road of science. As opposed to constructing an obstacle in front of one's eyes, which is, let's face it, a distortion of truth and leads nowhere.

 

[Farm Boy]

Conservative Christians make a great effort to tag every secular line of thinking as a religion. They do that so they can say "See you are just like us."

Definitely not every. First, some of them aren't morons. Second, only some of the people they're talking about are.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Maybe it is a life that understands that the chance we get, this life, is the only life we have. In the end one gets a final psychedelic trip, lights go out, and then one stops having subjective experiences.. A person who realises that life after death is a sweet, convenient, calming lie will tend to not postpone and instead do things in this life. He or she will live a life as if This is the only life, while having no unreasonable expectations in relation to "accrued sins/good deeds leading to damnation/salvation". They will tend to procrastinate less, because there's heaven or karmic cycle or whatever else promised behind the curtain.

Most importantly, seeing reality as it is enables fuller understanding of it, perhaps not immediately, but sometime in the future, when we get there on the road of science. As opposed to constructing an obstacle in front of one's eyes, which is, let's face it, a distortion of truth and leads nowhere.

I would suggest that this is a very open question. It is also a moving target. Our perception of what reality is has changed significantly over that past few centuries.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

That point you post often seems to follow my posts, so I'll address it, feel free to correct the dialog if that's off base: so the thing to be ashamed of in my faith, for example, would be Canadians who share a different faith, who have lost thier children?

I mentioned anti-vaxxers. Most of them belong to some sort of church where the Person In Charge (whether their church is Catholic, Anglican, Whatever) has been preaching that covid is a hoax, measles is harmless (obviously it isn't), and that that vaccines are some nefarious dastardly plot perpetrated by Justin Trudeau to destroy Canada (or at least Alberta). I kid you not, these are things people are saying here. No amount of explaining reality to them works.

That's why I don't feel sorry for the parents. I feel tremendously sorry for the kid who didn't get to grow up and have a life because the parents decided to be willfully stupid and allow themselves to be brainwashed.

Honestly I do not see that as so tragic. Yes, the loss of ones support network can be difficult materially. But fundamentally anyone who is willing to put things like belief higher on his list of priorities than blood is worth only of disgust. And one is better off without such people in his life

Let's use a hypothetical situation where a high school student, or even a junior high school student realizes they don't believe in whatever religion their parents believe in, and either opt for a different faith or no faith. Possibly they might identify as atheist.

Some parents would be okay with that. Some would be unhappy, but accept that their kid is old enough to know what they do and don't believe, and maybe they'll change their minds later.

And then there are parents who refuse to accept this and order their 15-year-old kid to go to church, believe in (deity of the parents' choice) or face punishment. Sometimes the consequences can include being kicked out of the house. So where is the kid supposed to go?

Loss of a support network when you're an adult is quite different from loss of a support network when you're underage, school is still mandatory, and you're too young to work more than part-time (and not during school hours). If college/university is part of that kid's plans and they need parental help to pay for it... yeah, there's a possibility of the next 5-10 years of that kid's life being derailed if they have parents who absolutely will not budge on this.

 

[Farm Boy]

That's why I don't feel sorry for the parents. I feel tremendously sorry for the kid who didn't get to grow up and have a life because the parents decided to be willfully stupid and allow themselves to be brainwashed.

Which is useless. The kid is beyond your concern. The only moving part of that equation still within your realm is the parents. If you've no sympathy, if thier price for being unwise in a way you find foolish was not high enough for you, worry not. It's not enough for God either. He'll come back for everything, and in manners utterly indifferent to your judgements.

 

[Core Imposter]

This thread occurred to me last night when I happened to wake for a moment. I think I am at one of those moments where I can demonstrate free will or not.

 

[Gorbles]

That's not what I meant. I meant it could be dangerous to plan your life around actually believing in reincarnation only for it to turn out we just die and only live once. Then depending on how believing in something that's not true affected one's life choices, you may end up not living as full and complete of a life as someone who is atheist and chooses not to alter their life (and potentially limit it) for non existent phenomena.

And speaking as an atheist:

What if the atheist is wrong?

Because don't kid yourself. You're still altering your life. Rejection of deities is not a neutral state, and honestly it's 1am but I'm tired of atheists pretending it is.

Rationality isn't a magical wand. It requires constant and consistent introspection.

 

[Birdjaguar]

This thread occurred to me last night when I happened to wake for a moment. I think I am at one of those moments where I can demonstrate free will or not.

"The illusion of free will is so strong that it might as well be real." Bozo Erectus

What if the atheist is wrong?

Well then your fate might depend upon which of the many gods is the one? true god, Perhaps, hope it is not Huītzilōpōchtli.

 

[Plains-Cow]

Anyone here ever have a 1:1 convo with a god? What did they say and what did you ask?