The Future of NESing

[~Darkening~]

Of course not, I'm not advocating to treat them poorly - I'm advocating to treat them according to their merits.

Newer NESers need to have a sense of humility. You can't just barge in with a lololroxo, take an important position, and ruin the NES for everybody. Newer NESers need to accept the fact that they have a lot to learn, and that if they put the effort into making mature and non-stupid decisions, then they will grow as a player. However, they cannot expect skills to come with an increased postcount, nor can they expect respect because of that. Improving takes hardwork.

A basic understanding of history and how geopolitics works wouldn't be bad either. (Something which ALOT of new players lack.)

The world is coming to an end for once again I agree with the crazy panda. I hate it when a mopd actually lets a new player- with no regard to any rules- take a position thats way too powerful for them. I personally hold no desire to ever take a great power- to much responsibility- and the limit of any nation I'll ever take would prob have to be Italy in Sheep's nes. And I only took that because Sheep kept asking me to take a great power in his previous NESes, not that I'm trying to defend myself.

Now when I first came here I wrote terrible orders and alright diplomacy. I have to say I think I have grown a bit in NESing and try my best to stay in character.

Likewise, I have never asked anyone "Wanna trade techs"? I don't even do that in the game, so I see little point to doing it here.

Personally, I think I would prefer a story-based over to a game-based (if my laptop would actually quit fighting me, that is.) I hate how everything is so goal-orientated these days and how people just have to win or they suck at everything they've ever done in life. I don't mind losing at all- I do it all the time, so I'm pretty used to it anyways.

Most of all, I hate it how nobody pays attention to the previous history already rooted down or the history dictated by the mod. Columbia- in Eq's NES- was a rbellious nation in history that tended to yell and shout more than anything else, ie it didn't really allow other nations to take advantage of its soverignty- it did the invading, not the other way around. I attempted to fill that role, despite having to quit later on. Also, as what I've gotten from Sheep's nes, Italy is supposed to be not-so-friendly with Germany and attempting to project its own voice into the world.

 

[das]

What's wrong with things being goal-oriented? IMHO its good if people set goals for themselves, as long as they're in-character; playing without any goals whatsoever is utter insanity.

 

[~Darkening~]

What's wrong with things being goal-oriented? IMHO its good if people set goals for themselves, as long as they're in-character; playing without any goals whatsoever is utter insanity.

What's wrong with being goal-orientated is that people see only their goals, refuse to move from those goals, and hedgepedge with those goals the whole time. I.e, they care little to nothing about the big=scheme of the entire NES.

 

[Kal'thzar]

mhmmm

I now fully support a move to the COLOSSEUM, what with Turners relative support for the matter, and he basically said that he would ensure that nothing overly stupid happened. (Leaving aside a NES-Mod for the moment; actually on my part no comment, I already try and help noob's, I don't really see myself being affected by the "hordes of dribbling Noob's that will surely infest our forum if we do move"...just means I have more potential allies when the time comes, and noobs are unkown variables, look at some of our more recent ones, some excellant people there...see sig for where I'm going with this ).

Really, for me, its not that I think we need more people, I just think that its totally out of place in this forum.

Oh and Turner, Thanks for taking the time to research this Forum, its nice to know that you want to do the job following the spirit of it, rather than following the letter of the rules

 

[Sheep]

Now that Kalth'zar puts it that way I agree with him.

 

[jalapeno_dude]

invitation only NES, hmmmmmmm. This would go well for the throwback i'm planning.

I strongly disagree with this idea. NESing, while it does tend to be somewhat isolated, should not become a totally insular community.

Yes, we do get the occasional noob, and yes, they can be annoying (like JackA ), but we were all noobs once, as people have said. Lord_Iggy is a relatively new NESer, and he's pretty much revolutionized NESing. Daftpanzer is in a similar situation. Even Kamilian joined in the middle of RTOR2.

An invitation-only NES will only discourage new players. Most players, like adherence, LittleBoots, and Thlayli, to name a few of the more recent examples, take the time to read a few NESes before they start and understand what people are talking about. There are occasionally some ignorant and annoying players, but they tend to lose interest and disappear. IMO, the benefits of new players are infinitely greater than the disadvantages.

 

[Swissempire]

I have had LENGTHY discussions with EQ on the nature of In Character actions, and i think THAT is something that a lot of players need to grasp. Even if it means creating your own character. Try to look as the NESverse as your character would see the world, not as some semi-omnipotent demi-god would.

Another problem i see is players making actions based off their assumptions about other players. People who invade not for IC reasons, or purely IC reasons, but because in some other NES the player was "really aggressive" and the likes. If everyone was IC in every NES this wouldn't need to happen...

 

[Lord_Iggy]

There are occasionally some ignorant and annoying players, but they tend to lose interest and disappear.

Or gain interest and become some of the quirkier NESers.

Thanks JD!

OT: BTW, send orders for LINESII now please, if possible.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Very well, jalepeno has acknowledged the valid flaws of an invitation only NES. Let me point out the benefits:

1. The IC diplomacy of the players would be ample textbook for students of NES in IC, could be very useful to newer players and interested individuals.

2. It would be thoroughly enjoyable for those playing, it may sound elitist, but this would be a way for the best of the NESers to have fun without worrying about excessive OOC and a horde of newbies.

3. By no means would anyone be permanently excluded from an invitation only NES, a person could be recommended by another for invites to the NES, based on performance in other NESes. For example, i know very few of you very well. Therefore, I would have to rely on the advice of others who I do know to reccommend particular players.


I would also like to point out that there are different kinds of newbies. Some enter into NESing with prior experience or historical knowledge. Others look at it and join without really knowing what its all about, while others apparently enter with no common sense or knowledge at all. Generally it is a matter of choice what kind of newbie you want to be.

 

[Swissempire]

Before i take a position on the invitation only nes, i would like to know three things.

1) Who would be the Mod?

2) How would the time period/rules be decided

3) Would I be invited*?

*probablyy not, since apparently i'm insane

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

1. Depends. I'm likely to do it myself.

2. If i did it, i'd go back to the old fashioned way of stNES, probably a freshstart closest to stJNES 2 or RTOR 2

3. Yes. I'd personally invite you.

 

[Sheep]

What about something like rtor2.... I would defintley play where I really started my CFC nesing career. As Arabia.

 

[alex994]

You know, joining with no understanding of anything remotely historical doesn't mean that newbie is doomed.

I mean, I joined nesing not having the slighest clue who Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Clausewitz and other military/political thinkers. And no understanding of history at all... And did I turn out that bad? seriously newbies can learn even if they join knowing nothing

 

[Birdjaguar]

An invitation only NES is a terrible idea. If you want a private gaming club go somewhere else. At the very least it is very unCFC and goes against the fiber of what TF has created. The elites at CFC are determined by merit and not by selection by a few. The only way new players learn to play well is to play with/against better players.

 

[Swissempire]

1. Depends. I'm likely to do it myself.

2. If i did it, i'd go back to the old fashioned way of stNES, probably a freshstart closest to stJNES 2 or RTOR 2

3. Yes. I'd personally invite you.

Now that my opinion is extremely biased, i think that this is a great idea. It offers an insight into what new players can aspire to be. It can also offer a sort of "All-Star Game" that shows different strategies, different ways to conduct diplomacy, different ways to write stories, etc etc.

 

[LittleBoots]

I would strongly disagree with Birdjaguar. If I had no part in the invitational at all, I wouldn't mind it, as long as it didn't set some precedent whereby people only play in invitationals. If its done intelligently, it can be a brilliant example of what an NES "should" look like (and, therefore, hopefully a representation of the real world, or at least as close as possible). If orders from such a game were also posted (after the information becomes irrelevant, of course), this really would help newer players.

JD once commented (and I thank him for that) that I quickly learned to write good orders in my first NES, his fresh start. That wasn't due to a superior intellect, it was due to the examples I saw and the things I learned watching other NESes (for months before making my own account, much less joining) and reading the orders thread.

EDIT: I would like to reiterate, however, that this cannot become the norm or the rest of us wouldn't have the fun that comes with playing with the more experienced players.

Finally, realistic diplomacy is honestly what makes the game for me (okay, slight exaggeration, but bear with me). It really gives it a good feel and things like what happens with AHY and Spain in Shadow of Rome (no offense j ep, but in my oh-so-humble opinion, things like referendums and voting outcomes should rest with the mod, not the player, even if it is RNG) really detract from the game.

EDIT2: That is not to say that I don't screw up myself. My war against Tartessos in jalNES and Byzantium's flip-flopping (although the latter wasn't as bad) were not things that would likely have happened in the real world.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It offers an insight into what new players can aspire to be. It can also offer a sort of "All-Star Game" that shows different strategies, different ways to conduct diplomacy, different ways to write stories, etc etc.

Swiss, I'm replying to your post, but my post is not aimed at you specifically.

It won't show that at all. Unless you can see the orders that drive the game play, watching a game doesn't teach anyone very much. Watching a third of the game is not how people learn to play games well. If you want to show off your great skill, then do a demo game, but post all the orders along with the updates. At least that way the great "unwashed" can actually compare players and see just how effectively they play.

 

[LittleBoots]

It won't show that at all. Unless you can see the orders that drive the game play, watching a game doesn't teach anyone very much. Watching a third of the game is not how people learn to play games well. If you want to show off your great skill, then do a demo game, but post all the orders along with the updates. At least that way the great "unwashed" can actually compare players and see just how effectively they play.

Perhaps we do agree after all

 

[Symphony D.]

Invitation is foolish if only because it presumes that everyone is interested in the same thing. To get precisely the right number of people to have a functioning NES--with all players sufficiently interested and contributing--would be hard. As would dealing with drop-outs or insufficient players to start. In those regards it would be hard to make function. If, for example, somebody invites me to some "all star" game, but it doesn't hold anything interesting for me personally, then I'm not going to play, reputation, fame, whatever or not--this is a hobby (something for entertainment), not a sport.

It also doesn't, as mentioned by LittleBoots and Birdjaguar, teach anyone much anything at all unless they can see the mechanics behind it, and you can't really do that while a NES is still going on without spoiling a whole lot of plans. In that regard it doesn't really work. What might work is to run a NES, document most everything that goes on behind the scenes, organize it, and then compile the "backstage" story and present it along with what's "on stage" and set it as an example, with some supporting documentation.

Then people could look at it, look at the more general information, and actually learn something. Basically sort of constructing a "NES under glass" for future observation. Alternatively, several small "workshops" (I suppose "MiniNES,""NESette" or "µNES" would be appropriate terms) could be organized as a sort of orientation. Learning by example in media res is not an effective strategy for outside observers, though.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Ok, how about this:

An invitational RTOR 2 style NES, i'll mod, document (i'm good at documenting) all orders and behind the scenes diplo I can. A separate thread would be created apart from the NES for lurkers and observation of the backstabbing and such. Invitees would be determined by nominations and approval by myself. These people would be trusted not to go to the learning thread to look at what everyone is doing behind the scenes. If they did, they'd soon be out on their ass.

Addressing the idea of miniNES: This is not an unprecedented idea. Warman and myself have expirimented with miniture NESes in the past, and stalin006 forayed into it once or twice as well. Crises in Almastan would be the best demonstration of a moderately successful miniNES. Using them as a learning tool I don't believe has ever been considered. One that could be helpful (and i have no interest in attempting to mod such a thing) is a battle NES to help people improve military orders. Reversely a control of production only NES could be helpful as well. These would most certainly be helpful in helping newer players learn how to send orders without using 4-5 PMs. (THIS HAS HAPPENED, GAH)