The Future of The Olympics

[Valka D'Ur]

FYI the 'winter olympics' are not the olympics.
Furthermore, even the actual olympics are a charade.It didn't have to be that way, but it is.

FYI, they're a lot more relatable than a bunch of people in their underwear running around tracks and jumping over stuff. If you want to make the Summer Olympics more authentic, those athletes are overdressed.

I will admit to enjoying the gymnastics portion of the Summer Olympics and the outdoor events that show some of what the host country looks like (ie. the cycling and triathlon events). Canada's had some really good athletes in the diving and synchronized swimming, as well. And people compare Opening Ceremonies, as to which were the best. My answers are Calgary for the Winter Games and Barcelona for the Summer Games. I actually knew one of the people who took part in the Calgary opening.

 

[Arwon]

Very little in sport is actually really directly profitable, and that includes most wealthy privately owned sporting clubs. That said, the sums we're talking about are, in the context of a national budget, pretty minimal and probably reasonable spending for a once in a generation spectacle event and, to be honest, a giant feelgood party.

Public funding goes into sport for the same reason it goes to other cultural things like arts and music - we as a public like those things existing and they don't exist as well when purely scrabbling for private sector resources. They're particularly bad at capital intensive things because they mostly don't have much capital to begin with (the partial exception being particularly wealthy private owners in parts of the world where clubs are owned by very wealthy people).

Sydney for instance made about a $2b accounting loss out of a $7b budget, which is about what was pitched in by public money (to cover that cost). That is comparable to the size of the Commonwealth arts and communications budget for one year. It's also comparable to the public spend on some new stadia (the new Perth football/cricket stadium cost 1.6b).

It should also be noted that the reasons Sydney probably didn't get much benefit out of it include: it was a time of low unemployment so resources were displaced rather than activated, Sydney is too well known and highly-touristed to have gotten a tourism boost, and the SARS epidemic probably hurt foreign visitor numbers.

On the other hand, we put on the best Olympics ever, and will forever brag about that, which is pretty priceless.

 

[uppi]

Sydney for instance made about a $2b accounting loss out of a $7b budget, which is about what was pitched in by public money (to cover that cost). That is comparable to the size of the Commonwealth arts and communications budget for one year. It's also comparable to the public spend on some new stadia (the new Perth football/cricket stadium cost 1.6b).

I think, a monetary loss on the game is fine, because you get to use the facilities and infrastructure afterwards. Many of the facilities built for the 1972 Olympics are still in use, 45 years later, just as the subway line built for it. Of course that means, you need to plan the facilities in such a way that most of them can be used afterwards. This is getting more difficult due to increased IOC demands and other cities willing to satisfy those demands just to get the Olympics.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

At this point I'm wondering why the South Korean businesses were forced to close. I don't recall reading the reason why.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I strongly favor ending the Olympics, and all organized sports for that matter. Actually legally banning them might be going to far, but if they must continue I don't want a single cent of tax money subsidizing any of them, and I don't want anyone competing in the name of any nation-state.

 

[Arwon]

I think, a monetary loss on the game is fine, because you get to use the facilities and infrastructure afterwards. Many of the facilities built for the 1972 Olympics are still in use, 45 years later, just as the subway line built for it. Of course that means, you need to plan the facilities in such a way that most of them can be used afterwards. This is getting more difficult due to increased IOC demands and other cities willing to satisfy those demands just to get the Olympics.

Absolutely. A big chunk of Olympics spending is capital expenditure, any halfway competent body should get plenty of use out of what they build.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I strongly favor ending the Olympics, and all organized sports for that matter. Actually legally banning them might be going to far, but if they must continue I don't want a single cent of tax money subsidizing any of them, and I don't want anyone competing in the name of any nation-state.

Have you done any sports in life?
Less sport means more war...

 

[Arwon]

I strongly favor ending the Olympics, and all organized sports for that matter. Actually legally banning them might be going to far, but if they must continue I don't want a single cent of tax money subsidizing any of them, and I don't want anyone competing in the name of any nation-state.

Only if we end videogames, film, theatre and music, too. If you take my fun I want to take everyone else's. I mean, seriously, getting rid of international test cricket and rugby union? You monster.

Less sport means more war...

Nah mate look at how bloodthristy and warmongering New Zealand is as a result of the domanance of the All Blacks, and Brazil as a result of their (currently flagging) soccer prowess.

 

[Arwon]

If you're generating empty value with your activity you are definitively overpaid. I'm complaining about local and national governments making crooked deals with all the big sporting event committees, building crap people don't need and wrecking the local economy for it so a couple of privileged sports people and the businessmen who support them can make a pretty penny. The top 10% of athletes can make a career out of this, the other 90% hover around 15k+ a year. It's just a tremendous waste of human resources.

What are you doing on a videogame website instead of personally tending to the poor and sick anyway. What a waste of human resources.

 

[Arwon]

Possibly an over-broad generalisation but jeez there's a breed of American nerd, usually left or "liberal" in orientation, who have a really messed up attitude to the mere fact of other people enjoying watching sport. I have some sympathy because of the bizarre and kinda creepy way organised sport is integrated into high schools and universities over there, it probably leaves some formative years scarring on people (pep rallies, scholarships, etc). That whole TV trope of "popular star gridiron boys being bullies" must have some truth to it somewhere.

But even then, it's an ugly and petty look. Let us enjoy our sport please. It's as valid as any other cultural pursuit, and yes, like other popular cultural pursuits, there's a role for state investment.

 

[W|M]

The investment that goes into the Olympics goes not just into stadiums, atheletes villages, etc., but also into things like evicting tens of thousands of people from their homes

At this point I'm wondering why the South Korean businesses were forced to close. I don't recall reading the reason why.

Probably because of competing brands being sponsered at the Olympics

 

[Arwon]

Yeah I'm not sure that's an inherent part of the Olympic process.

 

[Synobun]

Nah mate look at how bloodthristy and warmongering New Zealand is as a result of the domanance of the All Blacks, and Brazil as a result of their (currently flagging) soccer prowess.

I dunno man, those hakas are pretty intense!

 

[Sommerswerd]

During the Opening Ceremonies the New Zealand Olympians walked in all black and my wife asked why. I told her I assumed it was in tribute to their awesome Rugby team.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Possibly an over-broad generalisation but jeez there's a breed of American nerd, usually left or "liberal" in orientation, who have a really messed up attitude to the mere fact of other people enjoying watching sport. I have some sympathy because of the bizarre and kinda creepy way organised sport is integrated into high schools and universities over there, it probably leaves some formative years scarring on people (pep rallies, scholarships, etc). That whole TV trope of "popular star gridiron boys being bullies" must have some truth to it somewhere.

But even then, it's an ugly and petty look. Let us enjoy our sport please. It's as valid as any other cultural pursuit, and yes, like other popular cultural pursuits, there's a role for state investment.

While true there are other motives at work too. There is an absurd amount of wealth concentration associated with major leagues sports here and rampant fleecing of public coffers to support it - all the while we managed to systemically underfund primary education and anti-poverty services across the board. I posted the example of St Louis upthread. Organized sports in the US are often given tax exempt status and are thrown huge gobs of public funding by the same cities that are failing to support their own worst off citizens. The state of Missouri forced St Louis to cut their minimum wage after they had raised it, meanwhile the owner of the Rams was pulling in millions in tax free money. Their schools were so bad they were taken over by the state while at the same time the city managed to pull together massive funds to offer a new stadium to entice the team to stay in the city. It's doubtful that the team was even a net revenue generator for the city under those considerations and even if it was, there was a lot of other things the city could do to improve the life in their city or bring in new jobs. And the city already has two very successful and loved sports franchises that also take in more than their fair share of public money.

There is without a doubt a social good and usefulness of sports, whether it's organized major league teams or neighborhood parks. The problem for me is the insane amount of public funding that goes into it over here and the way it is valued in our society in a detrimental way. I can't tell you how many kids I went to school with who were failing to learn anything but pinned all their hopes on playing professional basketball or football. And it doesn't help that high schools and universities support those same kids by setting up special courses and bending grade rules to keep them advancing through the system so they can continue contributing to their teams.

So yes, there is a lot of nerd hate on sports here but it's not entirely unwarranted. I actually do believe you that a lot of the hate does stem from maladjusted teenage years for a lot of young nerds but a lot of it stems from all of the above as well.

Yeah I'm not sure that's an inherent part of the Olympic process.

Right but while you're tripping over yourself to hate on liberal nerds you could at least admit it's become a systemic problem with the Olympics and organized international sports.

 

[Arwon]

In my living memory I think it's 2 that did the mass evictions thing - Beijing and Rio de Janeiro. before that it was Seoul. Unless you know something I don't about Tokyo or Paris or Los Angeles, I'm not sure it's "become a systemic problem". Don't hold them in places like Beijing and Rio de Janeiro I think is the answer here. Similarly, the soccer World Cup is conditioned heavily by the kind of country hosting them. Qatar's World Cup is, in every particular, very different to how Australia's would have been! (yes I'm still bitter)

(the winter olympics I have no idea because I don't care about them)

 

[metalhead]

Very little in sport is actually really directly profitable, and that includes most wealthy privately owned sporting clubs. That said, the sums we're talking about are, in the context of a national budget, pretty minimal and probably reasonable spending for a once in a generation spectacle event and, to be honest, a giant feelgood party.

Public funding goes into sport for the same reason it goes to other cultural things like arts and music - we as a public like those things existing and they don't exist as well when purely scrabbling for private sector resources. They're particularly bad at capital intensive things because they mostly don't have much capital to begin with (the partial exception being particularly wealthy private owners in parts of the world where clubs are owned by very wealthy people).

Right. It's fashionable in wonky city politics circles to complain about how publicly funded stadium projects are a bad idea, because there is very little economic return on the investment. Which is true, mostly - it depends on many localized factors as to what kind of return one can expect on an expenditure of public funds for stadium construction, but public underwriting to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars is likely never going to be recovered.

However, there are lots of intangible reasons why it is nevertheless (probably) worth the money, especially as it pertains to the Olympics. There is a sort of permanent prestige associated with hosting the games - your games will always be referenced by where they were held for example. There are also mandatory infrastructure upgrades that go along with hosting the Games, which is a way to move things like transit projects and road upgrades to a place where they can actually get done.

Like just about anything that uses a chunk of public funds, there are inefficiencies and large overruns and you always end up losing more money than you thought, I wager. Still, governments aren't stupid. They know they're going to lose money hosting the Olympics. But the intangible long-term benefits must greatly outweigh the economic loss in a lot of people's minds, because competition for the Games remains fierce.

Well, that and there are inordinate opportunities for graft when you're throwing massive amounts of public dollars around to hundreds of different contractors.

Absolutely. A big chunk of Olympics spending is capital expenditure, any halfway competent body should get plenty of use out of what they build.

A sad sight if you travel to Barcelona is to walk through the Olympic venues, of which there are a large number clumped together up on the hill. Nature is slowly reclaiming the whole thing.

 

[Arwon]

A sad sight if you travel to Barcelona is to walk through the Olympic venues, of which there are a large number clumped together up on the hill. Nature is slowly reclaiming the whole thing.

I went to a really fun music festival on a former olympic site in Barcelona in 2008 or 09 or so, I wonder if that's the site you're talking about (edit: Montjuic, pretty sure that's it). They did get Pompeu Fabra University out of hosting the games, and a complete overhaul of the former industrial waterfront including the literal creation of a beach. Arguably the textbook example of urban renewal via the Olympics.

 

[AdrienIer]

The Paris olympics are going to be held in areas in need of investment. It looks like it will solve some of the infrastructure problems in the north of Paris.

 

[rah]

The masses need the circuses.

They should rotate the Olympics among 5 or so cities so the infrastructure can be reused. It can be made profitable every time. We just need to take the politics/graft out of it.