The Good State of Offtopic

[Traitorfish]

We can be a right bunch of dicks, though, is the thing.

 

[Akka]

We can be a right bunch of dicks, though, is the thing.

Yeah, I agree. People who have a different opinion than mine are very, very dickish.

 

[Yeekim]

right bunch of dicks

Misandry!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And when told by someone "I feel bullied here" I apply that same standard...and stop doing whatever I'm doing that makes them feel bullied. Unless my intent is to bully them further, in which case I make a note of what works on them and do it at every opportunity.

I now define bullying to include telling people if they are mistaken, regardless of whether it's true. You are therefore one of the most consistent bullies on CFC. When are you going to stop bullying people so much? Stated intention to bully large numbers of people + following up on that intention would be considered trolling per CFC rules.

There's a reason we need standards.

I've made it clear that I don't agree with everything she said.

I was stating that your claims of bullying are false. Only the "in defense of" part was referring to other posts.

As for "properties they can't control", please. It's behavior and thought patterns that are at issue, not basic anatomy.

And yet it's the anatomy that is being used to categorize people in those threads. Repeatedly. It's intellectually identical to making a statement along the lines of "black people need to stop being criminals and listen" or "hispanic people have 100% of the responsibility for racism". Those are wild claims that would get rightly shot down. They'd need a large amount of evidence to support them, evidence which does not exist. Saying "not all" later and then talking about a personal experience with people who fit into these categories later is not an example of such evidence.

I agree that definitions are important, but there are many definitions not found on whatever your favorite online dictionary might be.

What are *your* standards for bullying? What definition are *you* using, that allows us to correctly anticipate future bullying using those standards?

If your definition can't do that, you don't know what bullying means (even to yourself). We need standards for this discussion to be meaningful. If we lack them, then see my response to Tim above.

Considering that I've been dealing with bullying on this site for the past 14 years pre-moderator, during my time as a moderator, and after my time as a moderator, how many hours do you have to read through it - the stuff still accessible, that is? Keep in mind that forum rules state that PMs may not be quoted in public, so there's a lot that cannot be linked or quoted.

What I quoted said "posts". I already said bad PMs should be reported. I'd recommend blocking people who send them after reporting too as unlike posts that disagree, a hostile PM is something done unambiguously in bad faith. What I'm asking for is specific examples of bullying that occurred in the context of this discussion - from one of the recent OT threads. Those examples that "multiple people including yourself" "feel" is bullying, and why they meet the standards of bullying.

Claiming bullying occurred is a non-trivial claim. You're stating that people did something unethical and technically against forum rules in publicly available posts. It should therefore be possible to demonstrate which posts are bullying or why if multiple people are capable of observing them and identifying them as such. It would be a tremendous boost to your argumentative position if you could list your standards and show posts that uniquely violate those standards.

I suppose this is relevant:

For this discussion specifics are necessary, unless you want to submit that every post in that thread was bullying by everyone involved.

This isnt formal logic. Furthermore imo if you notice that someone is feeling bullied in a forum you should at least not contribute to that. Posts in a forum mean next to nothing irl anyway, so it shouldnt be hard.

What if I were to say that quoted posts makes me feel bullied ?

 

[AdamCrock]

I get highly annoyed when women inform me that because I'm female I'm supposed to be obsessed with makeup (never wear it), jewelry (never wear it unless at a science fiction convention - which I haven't attended in over 20 years), shoes (I own 2 pairs of shoes - one for winter and one for the rest of the year, one pair of boots, and 2 pairs of slippers), "chick flicks" (most of them are not very interesting to me), clothes shopping (hate it), and so on. It's perpetuating a stereotype that is just not accurate. Women are not a hive mind any more than men are.

I own just 2 pair of shoes myself I like it when women are not obssesed about girly stuff (makeup and whatnot) I like Your attitude Valka and I miss Mary too. She's alright. I've not known her for long but I liked reading her posts and watching her pics (and her cat's and spiders ) Can't we just apologise to her and have her back ? Pretty please ?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I own just 2 pair of shoes myself I like it when women are not obssesed about girly stuff (makeup and whatnot) I like Your attitude Valka

I wish I could do well on just two pairs of shoes. I have at least 4 pairs though, and currently 5. One pair of black dress shoes, one pair of brown (to go with different pants), sneakers (workouts), and flip flops. I have multiple pairs of flip flops since I'm hard to shop for so I get those as gifts at a higher rate than I wear them out.

I definitely feel on the "not conforming to stereotypes" front. I'm the only atheist in my family and one of the only ones I know in person, do not care about cars beyond their safety/convenience, exercise for health rather than appearance (these are correlated at least), and have no interest in the life trajectory that others seem to prefer I'd take.

Can't we just apologise to her and have her back ? Pretty please ?

What actions merit an apology, by whom, and why? This is a serious question, if bad stuff actually went down it would be reasonable. I was involved in most of the threads in question and didn't see anything, but they're long and it's not impossible I missed something said that was out of line or that it was done in PM.

 

[AdamCrock]

What actions merit an apology, by whom, and why? This is a serious question, if bad stuff actually went down it would be reasonable. I was involved in most of the threads in question and didn't see anything, but they're long and it's not impossible I missed something said that was out of line or that it was done in PM.

TBH I do not know either , I just thought it would be nice thing to do, You know a gesture of goodwill ...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

TBH I do not know either , I just thought it would be nice thing to do, You know a gesture of goodwill ...

Apologies are best done as an acknowledgement of mistake or wrongdoing. There were several factually incorrect/victim blaming posts, and a few posts were even objectively misandry (which was directly stated to not exist, even after evidence to the contrary).

The people who would supposedly be apologizing were not the ones to make these posts. If there were other posts that were similarly bad that I missed, they would merit an apology. I've asked for this a few times now and nobody is presenting any though.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I was stating that your claims of bullying are false.

So in essence you are calling me a liar.

Saying "not all" later and then talking about a personal experience with people who fit into these categories later is not an example of such evidence.

Are you talking about Mary or me?

What are *your* standards for bullying? What definition are *you* using, that allows us to correctly anticipate future bullying using those standards?

This reads as "please give us guidelines in how best to bully/troll you."

Not gonna go there.

Claiming bullying occurred is a non-trivial claim. You're stating that people did something unethical and technically against forum rules in publicly available posts. It should therefore be possible to demonstrate which posts are bullying or why if multiple people are capable of observing them and identifying them as such. It would be a tremendous boost to your argumentative position if you could list your standards and show posts that uniquely violate those standards.

Fortunately, I don't care how you perceive my "argumentative position." Just read the threads and take note of the times when people other than Mary or me have disapproved of them.

I own just 2 pair of shoes myself I like it when women are not obssesed about girly stuff (makeup and whatnot) I like Your attitude Valka and I miss Mary too. She's alright. I've not known her for long but I liked reading her posts and watching her pics (and her cat's and spiders ) Can't we just apologise to her and have her back ? Pretty please ?

You would have to ask her. As mentioned, she left OT, but still posts in Civ VI.

I was involved in most of the threads in question and didn't see anything,

Of course you didn't.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

And when told by someone "I feel bullied here" I apply that same standard...and stop doing whatever I'm doing that makes them feel bullied. Unless my intent is to bully them further, in which case I make a note of what works on them and do it at every opportunity.

What if someone tells you that you breathing in and out makes them feel bullied, would you stop? There are certain things that it's reasonable to request of other people, and other things that are not. "Allow me to be as insulting as I like and don't challenge me on any of it because it'll make me feel sad" is not a reasonable request.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I now define bullying to include telling people if they are mistaken, regardless of whether it's true. You are therefore one of the most consistent bullies on CFC. When are you going to stop bullying people so much? Stated intention to bully large numbers of people + following up on that intention would be considered trolling per CFC rules.

There's a reason we need standards.

Absolutely AWESOME display of missing the point COMPLETELY. Freakin' hilarious.

The ONLY person you have ANY say about in terms of whether they are being bullied is YOU. You have absolutely zero grounds to make any claim about me or anyone else "bullying large numbers of people." Get over yourself.

Now, if you want to say something like "wow, that was mean and I feel bullied" we will get a chance to see how I respond to your claim regarding your feelings, A subject which other than as they are reported by you I have no information about. It may appear predictable that my response to your report about your feelings would be to claim that you have no right to feel the way you report that you feel, but it isn't.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What if someone tells you that you breathing in and out makes them feel bullied.

Then I will either explore why their feelings are so out of control, if I like them, or I will laugh in their face. It is very likely that someone who is so powerless as to feel bullied "because of breathing" is not going to be someone I like particularly well.

 

[Sommerswerd]

You would have to ask her. As mentioned, she left OT, but still posts in Civ VI.

What?!? Why???

Rhetorical question... of course you don't need to explain it to me... I will go back through the threads and check on my own to see what happened... that just sucks, and makes me sad, is all I'm saying...

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Then I will either explore why their feelings are so out of control, if I like them, or I will laugh in their face. It is very likely that someone who is so powerless as to feel bullied "because of breathing" is not going to be someone I like particularly well.

I think you might have just hit the nail on the head.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think you might have just hit the nail on the head.

I think I've been pounding that nail all along. If someone feels bullied by your behavior, however benign that behavior may seem to be to you, there is no argument of the form "well you have no right to feel bullied here" that has any value whatsoever. You can either explore what it is that has them respond so strongly, which is undoubtedly something in their experience that you may very well not know about, or you can write them off as someone you can't be bothered with...or note them as someone you can bully fairly easily should it ever cross your mind that you have an appetite for that.

 

[Farm Boy]

Nobody can tell somebody how to feel. But that isn't the same thing.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think I've been pounding that nail all along. If someone feels bullied by your behavior, however benign that behavior may seem to be to you, there is no argument of the form "well you have no right to feel bullied here" that has any value whatsoever. You can either explore what it is that has them respond so strongly, which is undoubtedly something in their experience that you may very well not know about, or you can write them off as someone you can't be bothered with...or note them as someone you can bully fairly easily should it ever cross your mind that you have an appetite for that.

I mean yeah, broadly. There are other options as well of course.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I mean yeah, broadly. There are other options as well of course.

No doubt. There is a whole range around the exploring option, and the freedom that comes with writing someone off makes for an entire universe of possibilities. But at the end of the day the argument of the form "you just have no right to feel that way" is still a loser play.

 

[Berzerker]

Absolutely AWESOME display of missing the point COMPLETELY. Freakin' hilarious.

The ONLY person you have ANY say about in terms of whether they are being bullied is YOU. You have absolutely zero grounds to make any claim about me or anyone else "bullying large numbers of people." Get over yourself.

The definition of bully refers to their behavior, not how its received. I saw bullies in grade school insulting and laughing at people, I didn't need the victims to confirm it.

 

[red_elk]

...or I will laugh in their face.

What if they demonstratively leave the forum after that? You'll surely regret your behavior.