The Hard Work Trap

[Orange Seeds]

I have a friend who is this way. imagine you are him:

you are an undergrad at one of the top institutions in your country. You have worked your way into the top 3% of your program in hopes of being accepted into a T6 Law school. You spend some 40 hours a week on school, ~10 on work/volunteering and another ~6 on extra-curriculars. During finals, paper, mid-term seasons you spend up to 14 hours a day studying, writing, reading etc. Now, you already have little time for friends, lovers etc. Heck, you haven't had any love interests in a while. No time.

Law School is only obviously beneficial for the top 10-20%. In order for your undergrad to pay off, you would have to work even harder in Law school. Yet only some 30% of those 10-20% will get a partnership after articling. The work load at this point, he and others inform me, can range from 60-100(!!!)hours per week. You would only likely get into this position after 4 years undergrad, 3 in law school and maybe ~5 working towards partnership if you are lucky. Meaning you are at age 30, with few friends and perhaps no tenable love interests since high school and thousands of dollars in debt.

Despite all of these terrible results, you seemingly have to perpetuate the work load in order to gain obvious benefit from previous hard work. Stopping at any given point would be emotionally crushing due to the apparent waste of time and energy earlier in one's life; thus you continue.

Is this the best option for one's life? What are reasonable alternatives? Is it better to be lazy(er)?

 

[I'm Cleo!]

Don't try to be a partner in a big firm. Go to a state law school, practice the law you'll enjoy practicing, and live a happy life.

Many lawyers are unhappy (and drug addicts, and alcoholics, &c.). I think it's because they want "to be a lawyer," rather than "to practice law." Your friend should ask himself if he just wants "to be a partner" or if he would be happy practicing law without the Upper East Side apartment, the Italian suits, and the fancy letterhead.

And something about confusing sunk costs and bygones.

Cleo

 

[BCLG100]

Hmmm i'd readjust that slightly for me i guess.

Probably about 10 hours a week class time, minimun 50 hours a week actual studying, 15 volunteering (though i've combined extra curricular in there as well-not entirely sure the difference!)

It's not such a big deal the amount of work, you get used to it and you get used to never ever having a day off. Just look at the numbers.

your friend is doing 56 hours a week- lets round that up to 60, he's still got over 100 hours right there for sleep/free time. I would imagine if anything that the numbers you've given are conservative but still, you just learn to manage your time.

I can't speak for your friend nor anyone else but I want to be a barrister, one of the most competitive jobs around- i appreciated this when i signed on to do it, everything the job entails appeals to me, the intellectual complexity, the demands, even the stress in some way appeals to me. Now this may be different to a solicitors job/the way non UK countries work but Barristers are still self employed and still work ridiculously long hours and as i want to be a crime barrister then i would be working ridiculously long hours for ridiculously not as much money!

As i mentioned previously you just need to learn to manage your time, i still have just under 100 hours remaining in my schedule and most of any additional time i will spend studying but i also have a life, i have friends, i go to the gym, i try and make a point of going for a night out at least once/twice/too many times a week. Just i am prepared to work the long hours which others may not.

Looking at his route, this guy puts in all those hours, at 30 he maybe makes partner, at 40 he can retire due to the decade he has spent making insane amounts of money. That is one very large appeal for commercial based firms.

 

[LightFang]

Work now, and relax later, or relax now, and spend the rest of your life working.

 

[Quackers]

Good old hard work never hurt anybody.

Once he learns all that law junk he will be making loads of money - he won't ever have to worry about it.

 

[illram]

Well I question your basic premise because it's more than possible to have a fine lawyer job with decent pay and not work yourself silly, both before and after graduation. For one, you can get a free ride or significant financial incentives from a non-T6 school if you have the credentials to get into a T-6. Not having crushing student debt after graduation opens your options for non-crazy jobs after you graduate.

And regardless of your school (excluding non-ABA accredited law schools) you can get a decent lawyer job with non-soul crushing hours, it just won't pay as much. For example: Government work, solo-work, small boutique firms not run by douche-bags, policy work, contract work, in-house legal department work, etc. etc. Non "biglaw" jobs often do not have billable hour requirements, which is where a majority of misery for junior associates stems.

Even if you have to pay $1,500 per month in student loans after law school, you can get by on a very pedestrian lawyer-salary, e.g. 5K/month (average national figure for law school graduates. I bet a lot of people--naive law students included--thought that was higher.)

After taxes (single, no exemptions) that's $3,421.42/month. (California according to Paycheckcity.com). So, you've basically got 2K after you pay your monthly student loan off. If you live in an expensive city such as NY or SF then yeah, you're hurting depending on your rent, but it's still more than doable.

So no, it's not a trap because I think someone who values free time and sanity (such as myself) can find a reasonable career path after law school.

I can't speak for any other profession.

edit: xpost with Cleo who said what I wanted to say, but said it better. Damn you Cleo!

 

[Shekwan]

Thats not that much. 6 hours a day recreation is enough - sure if you were working 9 to 5 you'd only have about that. And I assume that he enjoys the study, so its no big deal really.

Work now, and relax later, or relax now, and spend the rest of your life working.

This is a foolish mindset. If your job is doing something that you enjoy you'll never work a day in your life.

 

[LightFang]

This is a foolish mindset. If your job is doing something that you enjoy you'll never work a day in your life.

I love programming. But working on it is still work.

 

[Orange Seeds]

I tend to formulate hours of work in terms of hours of actual work.

For example, I'm in the library 'studying' for six straight hours right now, but only maybe 4 of that is actual work, the other 2 is internet browsing, pacing, eating, thinking about non-school related things etc. I imagine if I were to calculate the amount of hours he was 'studying it might be up to 12 per day. (at least from what I've seen).

 

[really]

Work now, and relax later, or relax now, and spend the rest of your life working.

Or work now, then work to pay a huge mortgage, mortgage on a holiday home, new cars, expensive holidays to relax...

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Despite all of these terrible results, you seemingly have to perpetuate the work load in order to gain obvious benefit from previous hard work. Stopping at any given point would be emotionally crushing due to the apparent waste of time and energy earlier in one's life; thus you continue.

Making one's life hell just because it's been like this for years looks like a really, really horrible case of sunk cost fallacy, only it's not money but lifetime and happiness you're throwing away.
I doubt it's worth it.
Even if he get's through he might have to justifiy the investment to himself for the rest of his life and never be able to relax and enjoy his success.

 

[Imrahil91]

If he really likes what he's doing, then maybe it's worth it. But if he only does it because of the prestige and later high-paying job, probably not. Some people like working more than having relationships and friendships.
I guess a reasonable alternative would be to get another degree which is good and high-paying, but not that work-demanding.
I think it's great that some people use all their energy and talents to do something useful, but having some friends and a family should be the first priority for most people, but being lazy is never good.

 

[Shekwan]

I love programming. But working on it is still work.

Well its clear that you're not all that familiar with what real work is.

I went through a spell working for a sewer construction company during my year between education where I had to work 7am - 8pm (sometimes later) for a couple of months. I only had Sundays off. Thats real work. It made me really appreciate what some people have to do for a living. I certainly wouldn't be able to do that for a living or for any long period of time.

I'm not going to claim that I've had some sort of Angela's Ashes style working class upbringing, on the contrary like most people here I've had a sheltered and comfortable middle class lifestyle all my life. But I realise that theres a big difference between genuine hard work and college study.

 

[Kerozine]

If you've the motivation to endure, the smarts to overcome, and you've come this far, then by all means see it through to the end.

 

[dirtyparrot]

If that's what he wants and he is willing to deal with the required amount of work, then by all means keep going. Money is great and all, but if you have no time to enjoy it, then what's the point?!? Besides, this is no different than if you want to be a doctor, and even then provided that you've done adequately well enough, you can choose between more and less demanding fields with various amounts workloads and stress.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Or work now, then work to pay a huge mortgage, mortgage on a holiday home, new cars, expensive holidays to relax...

Hard work is one part. The other part is smarts (one element of which is financial acumen).

 

[kiwitt]

My immigrant parents showed me to work hard to achieve the things you want. My wife taught me to save hard for the things you want. Both these mindets have got me to a comfortable position in life. i.e. excess money, own home and no debts/mortgage.

I believe the first 20 years of your career should be spent working as hard as you can to climb the ladder as high as you can. I did (60-70 hours a week) and then in my forties I have started to down-shift (back to being an engineer, after being a manager) and taking time to enjoy life.

When I finally retire (in my 50's), I hope to be able to do volunteer work.

 

[warpus]

I have a friend who is this way. imagine you are him:

you are an undergrad at one of the top institutions in your country. You have worked your way into the top 3% of your program in hopes of being accepted into a T6 Law school. You spend some 40 hours a week on school, ~10 on work/volunteering and another ~6 on extra-curriculars. During finals, paper, mid-term seasons you spend up to 14 hours a day studying, writing, reading etc. Now, you already have little time for friends, lovers etc. Heck, you haven't had any love interests in a while. No time.

Law School is only obviously beneficial for the top 10-20%. In order for your undergrad to pay off, you would have to work even harder in Law school. Yet only some 30% of those 10-20% will get a partnership after articling. The work load at this point, he and others inform me, can range from 60-100(!!!)hours per week. You would only likely get into this position after 4 years undergrad, 3 in law school and maybe ~5 working towards partnership if you are lucky. Meaning you are at age 30, with few friends and perhaps no tenable love interests since high school and thousands of dollars in debt.

Despite all of these terrible results, you seemingly have to perpetuate the work load in order to gain obvious benefit from previous hard work. Stopping at any given point would be emotionally crushing due to the apparent waste of time and energy earlier in one's life; thus you continue.

Is this the best option for one's life? What are reasonable alternatives? Is it better to be lazy(er)?

You forgot to add that at the end of it all, if all the super hard work pays off, you become a friggin LAWYER

 

[warpus]

I love programming. But working on it is still work.

If you're a code monkey, yeah. If you've got creative control over your projects, it can be quite satisfying.

My immigrant parents showed me to work hard to achieve the things you want. My wife taught me to save hard for the things you want. Both these mindets have got me to a comfortable position in life. i.e. excess money, own home and no debts/mortgage.

I believe the first 20 years of your career should be spent working as hard as you can to climb the ladder as high as you can. I did (60-70 hours a week) and then in my forties I have started to down-shift (back to being an engineer, after being a manager) and taking time to enjoy life.

When I finally retire (in my 50's), I hope to be able to do volunteer work.

Why wait until the 40s to enjoy life, when you can enjoy life for 40 years before you get to that stage? You don't need to work 60 hour work weeks to be successful.

I put in a 35 hour work week at work and maybe 5-10 extra hours for freelance projects that bring in extra cash. I am quite happy with my life and enjoying the hell out of it.

Why waste your 20s and 30s, when you can enjoy them too? What you describe is not something I would give as advice to any friend; it sounds horrible.

 

[kiwitt]

Because if you slow down you don't achieve much career wise. And you are doing 50 hours a week and my 60-70 hours was 40-50 working and 10-20 hours studying. The studying reduced as I realised I was studying similar concepts and only different methodology, to the extent I now use mostly my acquired intuition.

In addition, I was lucky my work was also my hobby and I enjoyed it thoroughly. But I do agree you should not wait until you are in your 40's to enjoy life. Finding a career you enjoy if far more important than making a lot of money.