The Internet's 'Misogyny Problem' - real or imagined?

The same problem applies to sexism. The problem is Cheezy et al. are narrowing the definition of racism and sexism just to institutional racism and sexism, which is only part of the phenomena.

I agree and I don't particularly like being told that my incredibly common usage of a word is entirely invalid either, but I just think that after page after page arguing the point, it's clear that no minds are going to be changed on the matter in this thread and so the only way to move the discussion on is to just call a truce on the matter, accept some compromise term we can all (perhaps temporarily) agree on, and then move on to the actual issues we were trying to use the word to talk about in the first place.

I also think that terms can be re-defined or shifted in order to manipulate discussion or thought patterns, and that this sort of thing should be fought against as a matter of principle. It can make you a little untrusting and reluctant to enter a debate when you see the opponent doing that, but we can probably just run the risk of giving the benefit of the doubt on this occasion in order to move the discussion on.
 
From my "concern trolling" link on p16:

"I can’t argue with this. No, literally, I can’t argue with this. There’s no disputing the definitions of words. If you say that “racism” is a rare species of nocturnal bird native to New Guinea which feeds upon morning dew and the dreams of young children, then all I can do is point out that the dictionary and common usage both disagree with you."
 
No, I'm just saying that your definition and understanding of racism are wrong.

Just because something happens to be the predominant opinion doesn't mean it's correct. Appeals to the dictionary (famously short on nuance, and not an authority on the definitions of concepts) or to "what everyone 'knows' it means" are in fact appeals to authority and not actual arguments at all.

That brings us back to the core of the opposition in this thread, which is "nu-uh!"

Wait a second, I've never made any of those 2 last claims that you attribute to my position.

I've never once referenced the dictionary here or said that what I'm saying is correct because it's the predominantly accepted definition.

If you want to have a conversation with me you'll have to treat me like an individual, not lump me with all the other opinions in the thread. I've paid you that much courtesy and you could return the favour, if you're at all interested in having an honest exchange with me.

Cheezy the Wiz said:
By the way, it's not my definition, it's not my policy. It's the people who are being oppressed. They experience it every day, they see it in every place it rears its head, they know all the ins and outs of their oppression because they have analyzed it themselves, and they know what stands in their way of escaping that oppression. I listen to them when they speak, because I believe in their cause and want to help them achieve it. When you want to help someone you regard as an equal, you don't step in and start telling them how to do things best and what their problem is, you stop and listen to what they need from you, and what their problems are.

I see where your position comes from now, but in the end it boils down that you're only willing to fight racism if the races align just the way you'd like them to. You think this is me trolling you? No, this is me thinking that what you're saying is racist.

How else can I spell that out to you? If that's your position, that a black man telling a Chinese man to get out of his store "because they don't serve their kind here" isn't racism... then yeah, that's what I'm saying, your position is racist. I don't give a crap if that annoys you, that's just the only conclusion you've left me with. Unless you want me to lie, I have to say that what you are saying is racist. No amount of eyerolls is going to change that.

edit: It seems like you actually might be doing some good work out there in terms of helping people or at least talking to them about their problems. That's awesome. Keep doing that... Nobody's saying don't help the less fortunate. Just don't say that racism against some races is impossible, because that stuff is just vile. That's a road not worth travelling down for a society.
 
EDIT: You know what, on second thought (a bit late in the coming), nevermind.
 
My God, I haven't been back in this thread in what feels like weeks.. I read the first post and again I am reminded how much I completely and utterly and 100% disagree with Cheezy about racism.

Cheezy, you are redefining what racism means. You're pretty much saying: "From now on racism means institutional racism. All those other forms of racism? Forget about them, they don't exist anymore."

That's such a misguided solution to whatever problem it was meant to solve, I don't really know what to say.

Why not stick to the terms we already have? If you mean institutional racism, SAY institutional racism. If it's pure plain ole racism, a black guy calling a Chinese guy a {insert racism term here} and telling him to get out of his store, because his kind aren't welcome here.. Call it what it is, racism. What's the alternative? What do you call it? You said such racism didn't exist, so.. what DO you call it? Just bigotry? Nothing?

I'm sure it makes you feel better to redefine these terms as such, but it is just a silly thing to do. Not to mention backwards, hateful, and racist. In your quest to fight racism you are actually setting the movement back by taking this stance. You're heading in the completely wrong direction, my man.

I will try to be back in here after work to respond to any replies. I have a bit more time now to dedicate to CFC.

This is literally the fox news position on racism.

And the term isn't being "redefined" just because it's not how you originally understood it. However, as I already wrote, it would not matter that there is a casual non-institutional definition of racism if it weren't for the bit that that definition is used to perpetuate institutional racism. This is the critical point.

A black man expressing racism towards a Chinese dude is just as much a part of our institutional racism, I'm not sure why you picked that example. A black man hurting a white person because of race is part of the same institutional racism that oppresses black people and racially privileges white people. It's racism, but not "racist against white people" it's just another symptom of instutitional racism, in this case, the one that hurts black people the most (or arguably Native Americans).
 
A black person hurting a white person because of race contributes to a system that hurts black people and privileges white people? Can you explain, for those of us that don't understand this kind of institutional racism as well as you do?
 
A black person hurting a white person because of race contributes to a system that hurts black people and privileges white people? Can you explain, for those of us that don't understand this kind of institutional racism as well as you do?

Yeah, a system that oppresses people based on race is going to encourage a certain amount of violence regardless of which side of a privilege-oppression dichotomy someone experiences. When you combine mistreatment with violence prone folks, sometimes those people act violently.

If we saw, say, a violent slave rebellion in ancient Rome, we could consider the rebellion a consequence of the institution of slavery.
 
Yeah, that makes sense.
 
A black man expressing racism towards a Chinese dude is just as much a part of our institutional racism, I'm not sure why you picked that example. A black man hurting a white person because of race is part of the same institutional racism that oppresses black people and racially privileges white people. It's racism, but not "racist against white people" it's just another symptom of instutitional racism, in this case, the one that hurts black people the most (or arguably Native Americans).

This seems like another case of taking a broader and a narrower term - 'racism' and 'institutional racism' - and pushing their meanings together, reducing the descriptive power of the language for the sake of making it support a particular political argument by default.

What I think people using the narrower definition want to say is that, in circumstances where institutional racism against black people is significant, it can be more forgivable for a black person to express racist beliefs against white people than vice versa. And that's a fair point, so long as it doesn't lead us to condone racism of either type, or to ignore the specific circumstances in any specific case. If someone who has repeated, direct experience of being abused for his ethnicity, we very well ought to treat that as a mitigating factor with regards to his beliefs about people of the same ethnicity as his abusers. This would hold equally true for a white person living in a predominantly black neighbourhood, as for a black person living in a predominantly white society. So long as we're very careful not to read 'mitigating factors' as 'justification' or 'carte blanche' with regards to racist beliefs or behaviour, there shouldn't be an issue here.

What is not justified, however, is claiming that certain types of racism aren't really racism (or 'racism against x') because of the circumstances in which they exist. That's just twisting the terms of classification for rhetorical effect, and is absolutely guaranteed to do more to entrench the problems of racism than to alleviate them, by suggesting that those fighting one type of racism are justifying another type.

Edit: I realise that your use of 'racism' is not so narrow; your point highlights my issue with the narrower definition quite nicely, though.
 
What is not justified is insisting on debating semantics when you know and understand perfectly well what they mean by racism by now.

A word can have multiple meanings. Insisting other people use your prefered definition - something both sides are guilty of - is nothing short of an arrogant distraction from actually discussing any sort of substantive issue.

Substantive issue in this case being that, whatever you call them, insisting on trying to compare the two phenomenon here (Whenter you call the first institutionalized racism or racism, and whether you call the second "violence-resulting-from-racism" or "Racism against whites") as if they were similar phenomenons is either uninformed or hypocritical.
 
What is not justified is insisting on debating semantics when you know and understand perfectly well what they mean by racism by now.

A word can have multiple meanings. Insisting other people use your prefered definition - something both sides are guilty of - is nothing short of a distraction from actually discussing any sort of substantive issue.

Firstly, the only reason racism is being discussed here at all is because of semantics, and, more specifically, the similarity between the semantic debates around the word 'racism' and those around the words 'misogyny' and 'sexism'.

Secondly, and once again, my essential point is that, for the internet at large, the question of misogyny has become one of semantics, because there is a movement to expand its definition for rhetorical reasons, and to insist that everybody else uses that definition, so as to silence dissenting voices*.

Thirdly, what you seem to be missing here is that a discussion of the semantics behind a subject is, by necessity, a discussion of the subject itself**. I've seen smart feminists deliberately using controversial definitions to provoke and open up this kind of debate, and that's a good, positive thing. What is not good or positive is where people try to shut down debate by demanding that issues of semantics be taken off the table, and their chosen definitions be accepted without question (when they say, for example, 'your definition is just wrong').

*There is also the matter of 'misogyny' more narrowly defined. Feel free to try and start a discussion on such overtly reprehensible attitudes. Personally, I think what's to be said about them is so obvious as to be uninteresting.

**Note how, in my previous post, the bulk of what I said was directly engaged with matters of actual racism and its effects.

Substantive issue in this case being that, whatever you call them, insisting on trying to compare the two phenomenon here (Whenter you call the first institutionalized racism or racism, and whether you call the second "violence-resulting-from-racism" or "Racism against whites") as if they were similar phenomenons is either uninformed or hypocritical.

But they are similar phenomena. Very similar. In each case they involve the perception that race is a relevant characteristic, and that negative attitudes or treatment towards a particular person or persons are justified on the basis of their membership of what is perceived as a racial group. The question of what causes those perceptions in any given case - and the way in which they are conditioned by the experience of living in a racialised society - is something that ought to be engaged with and discussed, not shoved into neat little boxes based on the 'race' of the persons in question.
 
Yeah, a system that oppresses people based on race is ...
Apartheid.

Racism and the many effects of multiple forms of racism in multiple interpersonal relationships in multiple societies and cultures is not apartheid. Edit: I should clarify here. Apartheid is a systematised form of repression. It is deliberate and organised. Racism is a social force that emerges from individual racist interactions, it is not systematic in most instances - only in its most extereme ones - such as apartheid.

I have no idea why people consider this argument over a mere word to be anything other than an obvious red herring. Describe what you mean and talk about it, don't bicker over a word.
 
Substantive issue in this case being that, whatever you call them, insisting on trying to compare the two phenomenon here (Whenter you call the first institutionalized racism or racism, and whether you call the second "violence-resulting-from-racism" or "Racism against whites") as if they were similar phenomenons is either uninformed or hypocritical.

A black person telling a Chinese customer to get out his store because "we don't like your kind here" is precisely and exactly the same as a white person telling a black customer to get out of his store because "we don't like your kind here".

They're both exactly the same sort of racism. And that's the point everybody who disagrees with the "Marxist" definition tried to make.

Institutional racism is another thing. But not all racism of whites against blacks falls under the institutional category. And on an individual level blacks can be just as racist as whites (or anyone else).

Really, if we can't agree on this basic point all discussion is futile, because it would be like arguing with madmen.
 
A black person telling a Chinese customer to get out his store because "we don't like your kind here" is precisely and exactly the same as a white person telling a black customer to get out of his store because "we don't like your kind here".

They're both exactly the same sort of racism. And that's the point everybody who disagrees with the "Marxist" definition tried to make.

Institutional racism is another thing. But not all racism of whites against blacks falls under the institutional category. And on an individual level blacks can be just as racist as whites (or anyone else).

Really, if we can't agree on this basic point all discussion is futile, because it would be like arguing with madmen.

Institutional racism is a different thing from racism? And a white person being racist to a black person is the same as a black person being racist to a Chinese person?

Not that they can't be different or the same, but it's quite funny how people who complain about absolutes being imposed on them are dealing in absolutes as well. This kind of blindness seems to be a pattern in this thread and among certain classes of posters in the forum.
 
Institutional racism is a different thing from racism? And a white person being racist to a black person is the same as a black person being racist to a Chinese person?

Not that they can't be different or the same, but it's quite funny how people who complain about absolutes being imposed on them are dealing in absolutes as well. This kind of blindness seems to be a pattern in this thread and among certain classes of posters in the forum.

Institutional racism is different from the kind of racism I described (Ie, a black guy telling a Chinese customer to get out of his store).

And in my example, the racism of the black person against the Chinese person is identical to that of the white person against the black person.

I didn't say that all cases of racism are the same. I said that some cases can be identical even when people of different colors are involved. Which is the crux of the argument.
 
He's pigeon holed you into a class, I wouldn't worry overmuch about trying to reason out of the hole, it's not particularly responsive to reason. It's a pretty clever and illustrative move on his part if he's drawing a metaphor.
 
Institutional racism is different from the kind of racism I described (Ie, a black guy telling a Chinese customer to get out of his store).

And in my example, the racism of the black person against the Chinese person is identical to that of the white person against the black person.

I didn't say that all cases of racism are the same. I said that some cases can be identical even when people of different colors are involved. Which is the crux of the argument.

That's not exactly what you said earlier, and if we're going to go around discussing the semantics of what people said, it seems worthwhile to clarify.

Not that that's going to appease the Pharisees above, though!
 
That's not exactly what you said earlier, and if we're going to go around discussing the semantics of what people said, it seems worthwhile to clarify.

Not that that's going to appease the Pharisees above, though!

That's exactly what I said above. See:

luiz said:
A black person telling a Chinese customer to get out his store because "we don't like your kind here" is precisely and exactly the same as a white person telling a black customer to get out of his store because "we don't like your kind here".

They're both exactly the same sort of racism.

I obviously meant that those two particular kinds of racism were identical, not that all forms of racism are identical (I don't know how you got that). And I'm absolutely not interested in arguing semantics - in fact I hate semantic debates. What I'm arguing against here is the use of semantics to obfuscate the discussion. Semantics are being used by one camp here to deny that some forms of racism committed by blacks against non-blacks are identical to some forms of racism committed by whites against non-whites. That camp is using elaborate and nonsensical semantic arguments to deny that this is the case, even though it's transparent to any reasonable person that it is.
 
It isn't. Racism by the group in power is different from other racisms.

That's only true at an institutional level. At an individual one it's BS.

If a black store owner kicks out a Chinese customer because he "doesn't like his kind here", the store owner is the "group in power". It takes a bizarre amount of doublethink to argue that it is in anyway different from a white store owner kicking out a black customer because he "doesn't like his kind here". If you actually think these two instances are "different forms of racism", I can't debate with you, because you are insane.
 
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