The Islam secular vs. democratic dilemma: Does it exist?

The difference between a state religion and a prohibition against a state religion is far reaching.

J

Is it? I suppose it might be.

France has a nominal prohibition on state religion, while the UK (well, England at any rate) has a nominal state religion.

But the differences between the two states (though there are many) are hardly profound, and don't have at root the fact that one has a state religion while the other doesn't. Still, that's liberalism for you, I guess.
 
Is it? I suppose it might be.

France has a nominal prohibition on state religion, while the UK (well, England at any rate) has a nominal state religion.

But the differences between the two states (though there are many) are hardly profound, and don't have at root the fact that one has a state religion while the other doesn't. Still, that's liberalism for you, I guess.

The UK is hardly a theocracy, especially compared to many Muslim countries. That being said, the UK has a very real integration of church and state. In fact, outside the Vatican, theocracy has been rooted out in the West, and nowadays, Western polities are either purely secular (the vast majority), or Caesaropapist (the UK, Norway, Denmark, Israel, Iceland).

Caesaropapism is when religion and state are closely integrated, though the state is clearly the more powerful and decides what interpretation of religion is correct and which one isn't. It is the reverse of theocracy, where religion essentially forms the constitution of a state.

There is however virtually no Ceasaropapist Muslim country. The Caliphates are politically justified by religion, so these arguably wouldn't count, their Western equivalent being the Papal state of yore. Muslim countries usually tend to be militantly secular (though never explicitly identify Anti-Islam, with the exception of Communist Albania) or theocratic.

However, the premise of the OP is whether democratisation in Muslim countries will inevitably lead to a greater degree of theocracy, since that would mean that secularism or caesaropapism is non-democratically imposed onto Muslim countries.

EDIT: I really wonder what mechanism in Islamic society would responsible for Islam's resistance towards secular authority over religion. I don't have a strong opinion on the subject, nor am I able to formulate a coherent analysis, other than the observation that Islam seems to be very resilient against caesaropapism, compared to, basically any other religion.
 
I don't know how easy it is to compare to Christianity. There's very little in Christianity saying "the rules should be so and so, such and such". It was written in a day where Christians had no political power, so it's not unexpected.

Now, to be sure, there's nothing (that I know of) in Christianity that implies that the old Jewish laws shouldn't be imposed, if given the chance. Jesus even talks about various people falling down, and not applying the laws of Moses as should be done.

Christians only have two laws--Love God above all else and love your neighbor more than yourself. All the rest is exposition.

Seeing so many Christians trying to maintain or pass laws against, say, gay marriage already tells you that, regardless of the theoretical reasons for Christianity being more conducive to the separation of powers, it is in practice still a threat to secularism.

onejayhawk said:
I give you that Western democracy owes as much to Mills and Locke as it does to the Torah. That does not help your position. Democratic Theocracy is oxymoronic.

And what do you base this assertion on? If an entire society is pretty much homogeneously adhering to one faith, it is very possible to have a theocratic democracy. A Turkish Islamic Republic is one such possibility in the real world. Parts of Malaysia currently enforce Islamic law. Of course, there will be groups that are against the laws of the land, but those exist in most democracies.
 
Islamic groups arguably augmented their in the last 50 years with the advent of modern media like television and the internet. Given that Islam has no Caliphate nor has any cultural precedent for Caesaropapism, it can be interpreted rather freely to suit political interests of lots of Anti-Western and Anti-Secular groups who may not necessarily be friendly with each other. Perhaps more than any other major religion, Islam is ideally structured to take advantage of the internet and modern media in general.
 
And what do you base this assertion on? If an entire society is pretty much homogeneously adhering to one faith, it is very possible to have a theocratic democracy. A Turkish Islamic Republic is one such possibility in the real world. Parts of Malaysia currently enforce Islamic law. Of course, there will be groups that are against the laws of the land, but those exist in most democracies.

Demo - the people
Theo - the Diety
-ocracy - ruled by.

Democratic Theocracy or Theocratic Democracy both ruled by the people and the diety. It cannot be both, so contradiction. Oxymoron is a self contradictory phrase, so these qualify.

On a practical level, you will find many assertions in this forum that Turkey is not, has never been and likely cannot be a democracy.

A religiously homogeneous country could easily have a theocracy or a democracy, but not both at the same time. See above. In USA, the chosen course is to separate church and state formally. This does not mean that the church cannot influence the state or that clerics cannot be elected representatives. Freedom of religion =/= freedom from religion. It does mean that state recognized favoritism among religious practices is expressly prohibited.

J
 
Demo - the people
Theo - the Diety
-ocracy - ruled by.

Democratic Theocracy or Theocratic Democracy both ruled by the people and the diety. It cannot be both, so contradiction. Oxymoron is a self contradictory phrase, so these qualify.

On a practical level, you will find many assertions in this forum that Turkey is not, has never been and likely cannot be a democracy.

A religiously homogeneous country could easily have a theocracy or a democracy, but not both at the same time. See above. In USA, the chosen course is to separate church and state formally. This does not mean that the church cannot influence the state or that clerics cannot be elected representatives. Freedom of religion =/= freedom from religion. It does mean that state recognized favoritism among religious practices is expressly prohibited.

J

Turkey is a democracy. It's just a democracy that has a military with an unorthodox amount of power.
 
ah , please an end to the BS that ruined the country . Military could act only when permitted by the US . The Counter-revolution runs unchecked and where is this mighty military ? Except getting medals from the US , from the generals who specifically ordered raids on a Special Forces unit so that complied lists of Turkmen dudes who seriously favoured Turkey were captured and they all ended up dead ?
 
Turkey is a democracy. It's just a democracy that has a military with an unorthodox amount of power.

From the perspective of Western inspired modernisation and secularisation, this is a good thing. The Turkish military is a bastion for secularism that used to be able to shut down democracy to prevent the Islamising of Turkey. It is no surprise that Atatürk came from the military.

Propping up the Turkish military would arguably in the interest of everyone in the West, save Greece.
 
From the perspective of Western inspired modernisation and secularisation, this is a good thing. The Turkish military is a bastion for secularism that used to be able to shut down democracy to prevent the Islamising of Turkey. It is no surprise that Atatürk came from the military.

Propping up the Turkish military would arguably in the interest of everyone in the West, save Greece.

I'm not sure whether secularism trumps democracy in the general hierarchy of 'modernism'.
 
I'm not sure whether secularism trumps democracy in the general hierarchy of 'modernism'.

The very point of this thread is whether that is the case in most Muslim countries.
 
Demo - the people
Theo - the Diety
-ocracy - ruled by.

Democratic Theocracy or Theocratic Democracy both ruled by the people and the diety. It cannot be both, so contradiction. Oxymoron is a self contradictory phrase, so these qualify.

On a practical level, you will find many assertions in this forum that Turkey is not, has never been and likely cannot be a democracy.

A religiously homogeneous country could easily have a theocracy or a democracy, but not both at the same time. See above. In USA, the chosen course is to separate church and state formally. This does not mean that the church cannot influence the state or that clerics cannot be elected representatives. Freedom of religion =/= freedom from religion. It does mean that state recognized favoritism among religious practices is expressly prohibited.

That's your argument? Really?

Well, I, for one, don't know any system where they ask God to pass every law while the people wait with bated breath. Typically, somebody still deliberates on the laws to be passed, whether or not those who do this are elected. If they are elected by the people, then, well, it's a democracy. Except maybe in the Politics 101 textbook found in high school.
 
That's your argument? Really?

Well, I, for one, don't know any system where they ask God to pass every law while the people wait with bated breath. Typically, somebody still deliberates on the laws to be passed, whether or not those who do this are elected. If they are elected by the people, then, well, it's a democracy. Except maybe in the Politics 101 textbook found in high school.

Argument? You asked for explanation of a simple point. Necessarily it was basic.

As noted above, electing figureheads does not constitute a democracy.

J
 
Depending on how we define "figurehead", we could end up defining representative democracy as not a form of democracy.
 
Argument? You asked for explanation of a simple point. Necessarily it was basic.

Yeah, "basic" does not explain how societies work in the real world. It's positively sophomoric to insist, for example, that markets be in equilibrium according to the laws of supply and demand dictated by the first-year Economics textbook. But apparently some people are stuck at that level of thinking.

onejayhawk said:
As noted above, electing figureheads does not constitute a democracy.

Tell me about the great non-democracy you live in again.
 
Yeah, "basic" does not explain how societies work in the real world. It's positively sophomoric to insist, for example, that markets be in equilibrium according to the laws of supply and demand dictated by the first-year Economics textbook. But apparently some people are stuck at that level of thinking.

You did ask.

Tell me about the great non-democracy you live in again.

It's a representative republic. I guess you were serious about Politics 101.

J
 
Hi

I don't think Islam has a big problem with democracy now. But there is, in most Islamic societies, a problem with protection of minorities, modern human rights etc., though.

Islam was born as a state. And it's the major reason. Christianity was not born as associated with some form of a rule. It grew interconnected to monarchy from some point, but eventually it was forced to give it up.
While Christianity waited around 300 years to be even accepted in Roman Empire (and to become state religion in Armenia), and even more to actually become a state religion there,
Islam became a state religion during the lifetime of its founder, Muhammad.
Muhammad became de facto head of state, and at that a head of state with a mission to capture Mecca, wherefrom he fled.
I will not discuss the particular actions of Muhammad at lenght here. But, lets be honest: it was not a democracy.

After the death of Muhammad, the nascent Islamic State didn't call it quits, but elected successors of the Prophet (caliphs), who conquered half of the civilised world, including some of the richest provinces in the world, as Syria, Mesopotamia, Egypt. And for several centuries, the Muslim World was (with some splinter states) actually one, giant state stretching from Atlantic to China, and its armies operating from Volga river to Sudan.

The main judge, law-giver etc. was the caliph as the successor of the Prophet, but he named his deputies, judges (qadis). But obviously as time passed, the law got somewhat independent from the caliph. While it was undoubtly influenced by local traditions, it was all post factum islamised later on.

Because some jurists had an ingenious idea of basing all the law on Al-Qur'an and the sayings of Muhammad. The idea is quite logical. But it has two flaws. One is that it petrifies the socjety, and the second that actually, most of the sayings and deeds attributed to Muhammad were bogus. While Al-Qur'an was codified quite shortly after the death of Muhammad, that is not the case of hadiths, which were all sort of popular wisdom, private opinion, political propaganda stunts, and excerpts from local religious traditions that were attributed to Muhammad for giving them a bigger validity. We all know how influential a proverb is when accompanied with "... . Albert Einstein" signature. Not that Muslims weren't aware of that, some attempt at filtering the hadiths was done.

Hence, all the law was based on Al-Qur'an and sunna.

That started to change in the Muslim world, starting in 1798 with introduction of the Napoleonic Code in Egypt etc. And in late XIX century and early XX century there were serious attempts to modernise Islamic law.

But the trend at secularisation was stopped and reversed due to political circumstances (opposition to socialism, fight against Israel etc.) And the birth of modern islamist parties.

The great difference is that in the "Christendom", even if some party is "Christian", it means fairly little. There aren't really any Christian world-wide rules concerning the state and society apart from some basic rules. The Church has its teachings, but canon laws are not really comparable, and its demands are either very general or connected to some very specific cases; also, the demands are changing.

In Islam there's shari'a, and while there are different schools (madhhabs), the differences are not really great among them. And I know some jurists are much more progressive, but in general, it's a factor that's bringing islam and Islamic world back.

And it's not the problem that actually shari'a envisions world ruled by caliph, because there's no caliph, so for the time being sort of democracy is ok. And in fact there was shura - the first caliphs were elected by a sort of a gathering of Muslim elders, and there were other instances of democratic principle. But as long as shari'a has some authority, and it has and it's not really threatened much, it will be eclipsing human rights. And I do think it's a bit telling that in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood was campaigning in 2013 against the project of the constitution also by opposing the concept of human rights. Not that the current goverment is so dedicated to them.


We are used to associate democracy with freedom of speech, confession, gatherings, protection of the minorities etc. But it's not necessarily so.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

so see:

only in Kosovo (slightly) more people view shari'a as man-made construct based on the Word of God than as Word of God.

only in Iraq, Morocco and Tunisia (close to in Turkey and Indonesia) more people believe there's more than one interpretation of shari'a.

in most of Muslim in the countries polled
(apart from the post-socialist ones in Central Asia and Europe, Turkey, Lebanon, Tanzania, Chad, Guinea Bissau and Tanzania, but it's very close to half in Chad and Guinea Bissau)
people want to make shari'a the law in their land. That includes also countries in which Muslims are a minority. Including a very small one.


In all countries apart from Kosovo and Bosnia people want qadis to decide on family issues.

In Tajikistan, Malaysia, Thailand, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Bangladesh
(and close to in Lebanon and Indonesia, but even Tunisia)
people favor stoning as a punishment for adultery.

In Malaysia, Afganistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine
(but close also in Bangladesh, Lebanon and Iraq)
people are majorly in favour of killing apostates.

Only in Lebanon and post-socialist countries (Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan) more Muslims are more happy than sad with shari'a not being closely implemented.

Actually, if a majority of people in democratic elections, would decide they want to kill gays or apostates, that would technically still be a democracy if it was possible to decide to change this law. But if people want shari'a to be implemented, it is af they were saying "no, we don't want to decide".

Now, if a majority of people do not want democracy, is it still a democracy?
I guess it is if democratic ways of changing this decision still exist. But it may be hard to come back.
 
It's a representative republic. I guess you were serious about Politics 101.

Are you serious? You really think that democracy and "representative republic" are two distinct systems? I guess I was right about the high school politics textbook.

Actually, if a majority of people in democratic elections, would decide they want to kill gays or apostates, that would technically still be a democracy if it was possible to decide to change this law. But if people want shari'a to be implemented, it is af they were saying "no, we don't want to decide".

Why wouldn't it be possible to change the law if enough people want it? If a set of laws are enshrined, they could also be removed. If there's something else that prevents their removal (a conservative vanguard or something), then that's what killing democracy, unless the laws specifically say there are no laws but these laws.
 
Are you serious? You really think that democracy and "representative republic" are two distinct systems? I guess I was right about the high school politics textbook.
.

You can absolutely have a republic which is incredibly undemocratic. The Roman republic remains the original and the best example. If everyone can vote on which millionaires get into public office, you've got a republic which doesn't even pretend to be democratic. In many cases, 'republic' is simply used to mean 'not a monarchy'.
 
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