The Islamophobia split on the left.

[Mark1031]

There is an interesting split in my leftist media bubble video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZyC8ya_GvU&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ. 2 people I find I often agree with have a severe split on how we discuss Islam, Muslims, and issues surrounding media, culture, politics. This reflects a broader split on this question on the left. At issue: is it correct, moral, fair to characterize Islam and Muslim beliefs as more pernicious than other religions, a root cause of violence, terrorism and oppression? Or is this bigoted, unfair and insensitive with the root of some of these problems obviously due to economic and political/historical colonial issues? I must say I am on the side of the supposed Islamophobes Harris and Maher. I will not suppress criticism of repressive, sexist, anti-liberal doctrines out of cultural sensitivity. Nor do I think it is moral to do so but in fact immoral. Where do you stand?

Nice interview of Ayaan Hirshi Ali here http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/lifting-the-veil-of-islamophobia for those who don’t mind reading.

 

[Oruc]

Well I believe it's up to Muslims themselves how they resist liberalism and western imperialism.

 

[JollyRoger]

I find not much difference between moderate Muslims and moderate Christians. The only difference I see between extremist Muslims and extremist Christians are that some extremist Muslims have the courage to die for their extremism while extremist Christians for the most part tend to be content to be mere annoyances to social progress.

 

[Borachio]

I don't see much difference between extremist Muslims and extremist Christians, except, maybe 400 years of Christians not being martyrs.

It may yet come back for them too, though.

Moreover, strangely, some of the most severe blood-letting in the C20th didn't involve Muslims at all.

 

[Oruc]

I find not much difference between moderate Muslims and moderate Christians. The only difference I see between extremist Muslims and extremist Christians are that some extremist Muslims have the courage to die for their extremism while extremist Christians for the most part tend to be content to be mere annoyances to social progress.

Even when they're prepared to die for their beliefs they'll just bomb an abortion clinic or burn themselves to death, why not attempt a coup if insurrection is too much? it would be interesting at least.

 

[warpus]

Well I believe it's up to Muslims themselves how they resist liberalism and western imperialism.

Easy, there are many Muslim countries around the planet where classical liberalism is not welcome.

 

[Oruc]

Easy, there are many Muslim countries around the planet where classical liberalism is not welcome.

I was talking about liberalism in general, the ideas that emerged from the enlightenment.

 

[warpus]

I was talking about liberalism in general, the ideas that emerged from the enlightenment.

My point holds for this definition of liberalism as well.

 

[luiz]

I always found it a bit curious that some currents of thought will excuse pretty much any ideology or religion of the damage its followers cause and blame it instead on "economic factors". It's an incredibly stupid position, which holds that all human behavior can be explained by material conditions. But it's bizarrely popular.

The believers in that imbecile position hold that all religions are morally equivalent, and extremism bred by material conditions is what leads to differences. That's obviously BS. Some religions can be plain evil on their very core, others can be harmless superstitions. Why pretend otherwise when it's so freakin' obvious?

As for Islam in particular. It was a great moral improvement compared to the practices of 7th Century Arabs. Even for women's rights. Mohammed deserves a lot of praise in this regard, he was indeed one of mankind's great lawgivers. But if we try to apply his social teachings to the 21st Century, the result is a great moral worsening. And I'm not talking about extremist interpretations, I'm talking of a honest and thorough analysis of his teachings.

So yeah, there is something wrong with Islam. And that is people trying to live under and impose 7th Century social rules. If they stopped viewing the Quoran as an actual guide to daily life and more as some sort of "vague spiritual nonsense", then the problem would cease to exist.

 

[jackelgull]

I think of it as more of a product of its times in some regards and having great lessons on the dangers of hubris and other social ills in others. Pretty much the same as the bible. Backwards in some areas which people disregard, and good, maybe even progressive in others.

But economics does have something to do with it. It is no coincidence that extremists come from the poorer sections of society- they have the least to lose and are the angriest. I mean history is full of this. The Ku Klux Klan was begun by poor disenfranchised former confederate soldiers.

 

[BvBPL]

I find not much difference between moderate Muslims and moderate Christians. The only difference I see between extremist Muslims and extremist Christians are that some extremist Muslims have the courage to die for their extremism while extremist Christians for the most part tend to be content to be mere annoyances to social progress.

The big difference is that I would only trust one of those groups to bbq a decent rack of ribs.

 

[luiz]

But economics does have something to do with it. It is no coincidence that extremists come from the poorer sections of society- they have the least to lose and are the angriest. I mean history is full of this. The Ku Klux Klan was begun by poor disenfranchised former confederate soldiers.

Like bin Laden, that poor billionaire, or the engineers and doctors that orchestrated and carried out 9/11. The leader of ISIS has a doctorate.

Even the suicide bombers in Palestine more often than not come from middle class, college educated families. Nope, extremism is not a poor man's disease.

 

[warpus]

They needed to get funding from somewhere. The poor are a perfect breeding ground for extremism.. all you need is money.

 

[luiz]

They needed to get funding from somewhere. The poor are a perfect breeding ground for extremism.. all you need is money.

That's a popular line but it's not true. The Arab World is far from the poorest region of the globe but it's the hotbed of religious extremism and terrorism in general. Again, the people who blew themselves up on 9/11 were all middle class and college educated. People who had at their disposal all that the West can offer.

Some of the most notorious terrorists were very wealthy individuals. Rich countries like the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia produce lots of terrorists. Even the rank-and-file fighters and terrorists are more often than not educated and financially above average.

 

[Mark1031]

I find not much difference between moderate Muslims and moderate Christians. The only difference I see between extremist Muslims and extremist Christians are that some extremist Muslims have the courage to die for their extremism while extremist Christians for the most part tend to be content to be mere annoyances to social progress.

While I have no love of Christianity the difference in moderates/extremists is that the Christians do not currently express support for the worst beliefs of the bible. eg stoning for adultery, even the extremists. This is due to the moderating influence of modernity, science, material well being, political stability cultural history, even in rural TX. OTOH this is a common view in the Muslim world. 81% favor in Egypt but also 48% in “Moderate” Indonesia. This is a significant difference. http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress...on-muslim-world-paints-a-distressing-picture/

 

[warpus]

That's a popular line but it's not true. The Arab World is far from the poorest region of the globe but it's the hotbed of religious extremism and terrorism in general. Again, the people who blew themselves up on 9/11 were all middle class and college educated. People who had at their disposal all that the West can offer.

Some of the most notorious terrorists were very wealthy individuals. Rich countries like the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia produce lots of terrorists. Even the rank-and-file fighters and terrorists are more often than not educated and financially above average.

Good points, but 9/11 was a very specific type of operation, requiring people with a certain level of education and expertise. A lot of the people involved needed to be pilots and stuff, right?

What I'm saying is that poverty is a perfect breeding ground for extremism, because it's easy to find people who are down to join your cause, if you promise them the right things. People will put their lives on the line. They don't have much to lose. It's much harder to convince people who are well off to join an extremist cause - why would they risk what they have? Some will, but generally speaking it's easier to recruit the poor.

I think if you took every single terrorist on the planet and sorted out who was poor and who was rich before they took up the cause.. you would find that a clear majority of them came from not so well off backgrounds. But I have no data to back that statement up with.

 

[luiz]

Good points, but 9/11 was a very specific type of operation, requiring people with a certain level of education and expertise. A lot of the people involved needed to be pilots and stuff, right?

What I'm saying is that poverty is a perfect breeding ground for extremism, because it's easy to find people who are down to join your cause, if you promise them the right things. People will put their lives on the line. They don't have much to lose. It's much harder to convince people who are well off to join an extremist cause - why would they risk what they have? Some will, but generally speaking it's easier to recruit the poor.

I think if you took every single terrorist on the planet and sorted out who was poor and who was rich before they took up the cause.. you would find that a clear majority of them came from not so well off backgrounds. But I have no data to back that statement up with.

I think you'd find that they mostly come from middle class backgrounds, while the leaders are almost exclusively rich. Extremism requires a lot of conviction. Nobody is going to blow themselves up for something they don't care deeply about. This means a lot of reading, a lot of lectures, and all sorts of other stuff that require study and free time - luxuries that the poor lack. As I said, the bulk of the terrorists are not coming from very poor countries, and much less from very poor families.

 

[Borachio]

Well. Then I think they're completely nuts. I can see some excuse for poor people getting all worked up about stuff. But hardly the rich. Why don't they try devoting some of their wealth to making life better for people rather than worse? Oh, but wait, that's what they think they're doing, right? As I said: nuts.

 

[warpus]

I think you'd find that they mostly come from middle class backgrounds, while the leaders are almost exclusively rich. Extremism requires a lot of conviction. Nobody is going to blow themselves up for something they don't care deeply about. This means a lot of reading, a lot of lectures, and all sorts of other stuff that require study and free time - luxuries that the poor lack. As I said, the bulk of the terrorists are not coming from very poor countries, and much less from very poor families.

I would love to see some numbers on this, because while I agree that a significant amount of well off people get recruited to such things.. I've always been under the impression that poorer parts of the world with poor infrastructure and social nets are fertile breeding grounds for recruits, and that's why ISIS for example is able to grow at such a rapid pace.

 

[luiz]

I would love to see some numbers on this, because while I agree that a significant amount of well off people get recruited to such things.. I've always been under the impression that poorer parts of the world with poor infrastructure and social nets are fertile breeding grounds for recruits, and that's why ISIS for example is able to grow at such a rapid pace.

ISIS grew so fast in Iraq because they enlisted the Sunni former elite that was already up in arms for their loss of privileges and discrimination suffered from the now ruling Shia majority. These are people with combat training and some financial means. They are not the bottom strata of Iraq, very far from it. Lots of them were former Baathists.

As for the foreign recruits, they are without shadow of doubt mostly middle class.