The Islamophobia split on the left.

[JollyRoger]

A Christian is one who follows the teaching of Christ.

Muslims consider Jesus an important enough prophet to follow his teachings.

 

[luiz]

It's not a Muslim problem, it's an Arab problem. Ever notice how all those death threats and female mutilating come from Arab Muslims in particular?

I find it somewhat ridiculous to see people like Bassem Youssef being portrayed as a victim of Morsi and now Sisi. When you've had three fascist regimes in succession, the problem just might be systemic.

Hum, the Taliban are not Arabic and they're pretty bad. Same with Boko Haram. I don't think Arabs are the issue here.

 

[Old Hippy]

Hum, the Taliban are not Arabic and they're pretty bad. Same with Boko Haram. I don't think Arabs are the issue here.

but both have strong influences of Wahhabism and funding for mosques and madras's and a dirrect link to Saudi Araba.

 

[Phrossack]

It's not a Muslim problem, it's an Arab problem. Ever notice how all those death threats and female mutilating come from Arab Muslims in particular?

I find it somewhat ridiculous to see people like Bassem Youssef being portrayed as a victim of Morsi and now Sisi. When you've had three fascist regimes in succession, the problem just might be systemic.

Do you get such problems from Lebanese Maronite Christians? They're considered Arabs by most people other than self-identified Phoenician nationalists. Their violence has been pretty much restricted to Lebanon during the civil war, and that has quieted down for now.

 

[Smote]

I'm on Harris's side. It's a problem with Islam.

Why?

Teachings of violence. (See any discussion of whether Islam is really a "religion of peace.")

Moderates interpret this violence as a strife within which is way of striving towards peace. But it is easily and commonly interpreted in an actually violent way. The problem here is that a book that speaks incessantly about violence and martyrdom that really means to talk about peace... well, it should just talk about peace, without all the violent crap.

But you can't say this. Their book is the Word of God. Therefore all this violent crap actually has to be digested. And if you publicly criticize what the book talks about in Muslim culture, you'll probably get killed as an apostate. 86% of Muslims in Egypt support the death penalty for leaving Islam. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

This violent censorship of anyone who derides Islam, along with the attitude of jihad, is what makes it so dangerous. Nobody wants to be the one that publicly speaks out against it and is then targeted by Muslims worldwide.

Its similar to Gamergate in our society. They've taken a page from the Islamic radicals and terrorize public critics of their movement. (Though gamergate hasn't murdered anyone, yet.) http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/po...ly-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate#notes

 

[JollyRoger]

Moderates interpret this violence as a strife within which is way of striving towards peace. But it is easily and commonly interpreted in an actually violent way. The problem here is that a book that speaks incessantly about violence and martyrdom that really means to talk about peace... well, it should just talk about peace, without all the violent crap.

But you can't say this. Their book is the Word of God. Therefore all this violent crap actually has to be digested.

Bible thumpers must be doing it in self defense.

 

[MilesGregarius]

A Christian is one who follows the teaching of Christ.

Theoretically. Many Christians seem to give far more weight Paul, Revelations, and/or the Old Testament than to what Christ actually says in the Gospels.

 

[Mouthwash]

Do you get such problems from Lebanese Maronite Christians? They're considered Arabs by most people other than self-identified Phoenician nationalists. Their violence has been pretty much restricted to Lebanon during the civil war, and that has quieted down for now.

It's an Arab Muslim problem. Islam is a part of Arab identity. Early on there were Christians and Jews who tried to be part of it, but they've disappeared in the face of fascism.

Maronite Christians are pretty tribal, but remember that Islam is a way of life, and that cultures interpret it differently. In the Arab case, there is nothing quite as alien to them as democracy. Look at how well emirs and kings have done in the Arab Spring.

 

[Esmer]

It's not a Muslim problem, it's an Arab problem. Ever notice how all those death threats and female mutilating come from Arab Muslims in particular?

Actually, the female mutilation thing is Northern African in particular. You won't find it in Middle Eastern Arab countries that much.

 

[MilesGregarius]

Actually, the female mutilation thing is Northern African in particular. You won't find it in Middle Eastern Arab countries that much.

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) seems to mainly happen in the Sahel and the Horn of Africa, decidedly not an Arab-dominated region:

It's not even a Muslim issue. Ethiopia is predominantly Christian, but a majority of women are circumcised - 72% of Protestants and 67% of Catholics.

 

[Traitorfish]

Didn't the ancient Egyptians practice female genital mutilation to some extent, too? It's not even an Abrahamic thing.

 

[Arakhor]

Their book is the Word of God. Therefore all this violent crap actually has to be digested.

Christian fundamentalists don't kill people for leaving Christianity, but people have been killed for lifestyles contrary to what it says in the Good Book. I'm sure almost anyone on this forum knows what II Timothy 3:16 references, without looking it up.

Extremists are bad, no matter where they are, but when you add in nationalist, cultural or other influences, you can get some really terrible combinations.

 

[Oruc]

Moderates interpret this violence as a strife within which is way of striving towards peace.

Moderates aren't doing it right the inner struggle, while certainly the greater struggle, has to be mirrored by the outer struggle, which is the lesser struggle.

 

[Mouthwash]

Didn't the ancient Egyptians practice female genital mutilation to some extent, too? It's not even an Abrahamic thing.

OK, yes, that's a bad example. Nonetheless, a good 90% of the violence and intolerance we see from Muslims come from Arabs.

 

[Smote]

Extremists are bad, no matter where they are

Extremist:
a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action.

Though I agree with your overall intent, I think some religious extremists are not bad. If we look at Tibetan Buddhism, an extremist will simply have extraordinary loving-kindness and follow the various rules to the letter. One might point to some monks in Myanmar for counter-examples, and I agree, they do make Buddhists look bad. However, those monks are in fact breaking their precepts, and don't classify as extremists for following religious views, only for extreme action.

For an even better example, if we look at Jainism, an extremist will cover their mouth with a veil for fear of inhaling a mosquito. This is no danger to society.

The difference is that Buddhism and Jainism are not built on violent, anti-societal beliefs, so a Buddhist or Jainist extremist is not a problem for everyone else, unlike religions with a substantial portion of their texts dedicated to violence.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, there are exceptions to every rule, especially if you stretch certain principles breaking point. There was one Indian ruler whose name I've forgotten who carved a bloody swathe of violence and death through his local area some 1500 or so years ago and some of the people helping him were Jain monks, stabbing up people with the best of them.

Of course, the main difference here is that Islam is still largely associated in the public consciousness with militarized factions, whereas other religions (notably Christianity) have tended by and large to shed that cultural baggage.

 

[Smote]

Well, there are exceptions to every rule, especially if you stretch certain principles breaking point. There was one Indian ruler whose name I've forgotten who carved a bloody swathe of violence and death through his local area some 1500 or so years ago and some of the people helping him were Jain monks, stabbing up people with the best of them.

Of course, the main difference here is that Islam is still largely associated in the public consciousness with militarized factions, whereas other religions (notably Christianity) have tended by and large to shed that cultural baggage.

This is very true.

It's worth examining just how much you have to twist the words of each religion to get to the point of violence. For some, you have to completely break them. For others, it's actually supported, and people won't have to twist their minds through as much cognitive dissonance to get there.

For most of us, the fundamentalist mindset is so foreign. But if you think about it, it actually makes perfect sense to go blow yourself up and kill a bunch of heretics if you firmly believe in an afterlife and the rewards awaiting you for this action. Who would want to spend their life in misery when they could get to the afterlife more quickly and claim a bunch of virgins?

 

[Traitorfish]

OK, yes, that's a bad example. Nonetheless, a good 90% of the violence and intolerance we see from Muslims come from Arabs.

What about the Taliban and associated groups? They're mostly Pashtun, I think. Plus there's a lot of activity in the former Soviet Union, mostly from people of Caucasian and Central Asian ethnicity. Hezbollah in Turkey is mostly Kurdish, and the Islamic insurgents in China are primarily Uyghur. Most of the Islamic terrorism in sub-Saharan Africa is carried out by sub-Saharan Africans. Not to mention ongoing terrorist campaigns in South-East Asia- in Indonesia, in Thailand and the Philippines.

Are there actually ny statistics on who actually makes up militant Islamist groups?

 

[timtofly]

Extremist:
a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action.

Though I agree with your overall intent, I think some religious extremists are not bad. If we look at Tibetan Buddhism, an extremist will simply have extraordinary loving-kindness and follow the various rules to the letter. One might point to some monks in Myanmar for counter-examples, and I agree, they do make Buddhists look bad. However, those monks are in fact breaking their precepts, and don't classify as extremists for following religious views, only for extreme action.

For an even better example, if we look at Jainism, an extremist will cover their mouth with a veil for fear of inhaling a mosquito. This is no danger to society.

The difference is that Buddhism and Jainism are not built on violent, anti-societal beliefs, so a Buddhist or Jainist extremist is not a problem for everyone else, unlike religions with a substantial portion of their texts dedicated to violence.

For one thing, a written text about human experiences even today is going to be filled with violence. That is the human natural thing to do in reporting the violence that is going on around them. I am not sure why people do not judge themselves on their own human nature as opposed to their writings, accept for the fact that writings remove the issue away from the fact that humans are humans despite what they write down. We can then judge the writings and not necessarily our own human nature.

Extremism is just another method of removing one's nature a step away from their own reality so that they do not have to deal with their own humanness. Of course we do not want extremism to exist, but in reality they are the one's who are actually taking life to the fullest possible point. Most people limit themselves to the mundane.

 

[luiz]

but both have strong influences of Wahhabism and funding for mosques and madras's and a dirrect link to Saudi Araba.

Well any Muslim group anywhere in the world will have Arab influences. Mohammed was, after all, an Arab. But that doesn't change the fact that there are extremist Muslim groups in non-Arab countries as different as Nigeria, Afghanistan and Malaysia. So Muslim extremism is not an Arab issue it is... a Muslim issue.

It's an Arab Muslim problem. Islam is a part of Arab identity. Early on there were Christians and Jews who tried to be part of it, but they've disappeared in the face of fascism.

Maronite Christians are pretty tribal, but remember that Islam is a way of life, and that cultures interpret it differently. In the Arab case, there is nothing quite as alien to them as democracy. Look at how well emirs and kings have done in the Arab Spring.

If it's a Muslim Arab problem I'd really like to know what's going on with the Taliban.