The Nile Gift - scenario creation thread

[LouLong]

Ok, after some disccusion with Maisse and TLC and pending approbation by Arne, we have somehow definited the map, the date and the main civs.

I attach here mostly for the other team members a biq with some cities placed to see the different civs, their frontiers, etc...

Of course placing the cities made me realize quickly we need a much bigger map as actually the large majority of cities, etc... are in the delta or on the Nile which makes these areas crowded. Since most of the mpa will be useless desert I think the map can definitely expanded quite a bit.


Note : this is no way the future biq, it is just a tool.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Of course placing the cities made me realize quickly we need a much bigger map as actually the large majority of cities, etc... are in the delta or on the Nile which makes these areas crowded. Since most of the mpa will be useless desert I think the map can definitely expanded quite a bit.

That's why my map of Egypt is so big

 

[LouLong]

Took a look at your map again and it is really too big unfortunately.

Actually a sort of happy medium between the two could be reached.
Do you still have the infos you used for doing the Egyptian map ? Because if so maybe you could do another one going a tad more north, a bit less East and much smaller ?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Is Maisse map the "egypte.biq" map Bóreas was intending to use for his unification of Egypt scen? If so, I don't think it's too big, really, since alot of it would be empty. We could crop much of the Western Desert, too.

(Is it just me, or is the Western Desert being an easternly bit of the Sahara a rather perverse piece of geographical nomenclature?)

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Yes, it's this map.

I agree 165X255 is huge. But this is a special map, there's a lot of desert, hills and plains. So, if you set these terrains I unbuildable, your cities will stick to the good locations and the game won't crash.

Anyway, if necessary I can make a 120 of 140 map.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Whether we're gonna use it or not, it's a very nice map, Maisse.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I've been looking thru an old ('60s) book on the Hyksos, which argues they were Asiatic mercenaries in Egyptian service who revolted in the Eastern Delta, setting up their own independent state. I suppose this goes well with the starts-with-Avaris idea.

The book also stresses the importance of their commercial ties to Palestine and Syria. I suppose this will embolden those of you who want to include alot of northernly territories. Oh well, as long as we keep the focus on Egypt in mind, no big problem.

Edit: Livius.org has a basic regnal list for ancient (pre-Roman) Egypt. Note the contemporaneity of the 15th, 16th, and 17th dynasties.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Another interesting thing in this book is that it rejects the notion that the Hyksos brought the war chariot to Egypt. It clearly didn't kill the notion, tho, since I've seen it in much more recent books.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Interesting things you brought to us, TLC.

Maybe we should validate the choice of time and go to kingdoms, borders and leaders ?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I believe everyone is agreed on the 2nd Intermediate. The only question seems to be whether we should continue the timeline into the New Kingdom (I think not).

The best attested Hyksos ruler is Apophis, (AKA "Apepi" - so in Livus.org's regnal list), who reigned during most of the first half of the 16th century BC. He ruled Egypt north of Cusae (a place I've not been able to locate yet), and was recognized as overlord over Upper Egypt around Thebes (17th Dynasty). There seems to be disagreement as to whether the end of his reign overlapped with that of Kamose, the Theban ruler who started the eviction of the Hyksos from Egypt.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Apophis is, IMHO, the best leader for the Hyksôs.

For Upper Egypt ( kingdom of Thebes ) I would go for Ahmosis.

I think we should stop the scenario when Egypt is reunificated. The rising power of the new empire is another story.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I agree completely, except I'd be inclined to go for Kamose for the Thebans. (I'd suggest "Upper Egypt" as civ-name, but "Thebans" and "Theban" as noun and adj, to keep things tolerably short.)

One question is if we go for a single Hyksos civ, or go for make a separate one for the "Lesser Hyksos", apparently semi-independent vassals of Avaris who ruled Middle Egypt. Then there's those guys in the Western Delta on the map someone posted here - I've got no idea, TBH, who they were.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Ah, I see Cusae is on your map, between Hermopolis and Assiut, and the guys in the Western Delta it indicates is the XIV dynasty (pre-Hyksos). Well, everything else seems to indicate that the whole delta was under Hyksos rule, so let's go with that.

I think I'll translate the piece on the Hyksos in my encyclopaedia, and post it here. It's interesting, but not easy to summarize.

Edit: Here it is. I hope my translationese is decipherable.

hy´ksos, (Greek Hyksa´s, designation of the rulers of foreign descent who reigned in Egypt during the so-called second intermediate period (ca 1675-1575 BC), coined by the Jewish historian Josephus (37-ca 100 AD) from hekau hasut, the name they used for themselves. Already about 1900 BC Canaanite tribes began to immigrate to the Nile Valley. "The Great Hyksos" made Hatuaret (Avaris) in the Eastern Delta their residence, and probably controled the Delta as the 16th dynasty. The rulers had Asiatic names, such as Salitis, Jakubher, Khian, and Apopis [sic]. "The Lesser Hyksos" (15th dynasty) are very poorly known. It is assumed that they ruled as vassals of the "Great" over the nomes of Middle Egypt. During the whole of the Hyksos period an Egyptian pharaonic dynasty (the 17th) ruled in Thebes. One of its last members, Kamose, managed to seize Avaris. His brother Ahmose finally expelled the Hyksos from Egypt and inaugurated the New Kingdom.

The Hyksos have commonly been considered a negative force in the history of Egypt. In actuality they brought the country significant new elements, inter alia the Asiatic deities Eel, Baal, Teshub, Reshef, Astarte et al. They also brought the horse, which together with the chariot was to become an important component in the Egyptian army, and the composite bow. The Hyksos rulers have left behind them neither art nor monuments. Archaeologic finds demonstrate their trade connections with Nubia, Crete, and Mesopotamia.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Here's an interesting link about the 2nd Intermediate.

Not they seem to use the designation 15th dynasty and 16th dynasty the other way round compared to my encyclopaedia entry.

 

[LouLong]

Time to revive the thread I think.

Maisse has started a very nice map but we need to agree on the northern limit. Maisse can you post a screenshot here and all vote, especially Arne who wants Crete included.

Can we try to have a chat tomorrow afternoon (wednesday) ?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Looks like I'll be busy tomorrow afternoon and evening, I'm afraid.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Here's the preview.

Some precisions :
- I know the terrain is wrong ( no hilles, no mountains,... ). This is just for the limits
- This is just a picture. I can give it the size I want.

I think south and east borders are OK.

In the north, it includes southern Lebanon. I think it's enough. But I can easily add some land.

Crete is not on the map. The problem is Crete is far east and north. To include it on the map, I should enlarge it a lot. We would a south coast of Turkey and large parts of (useless) lybian desert. I suggested to Loulong to place Crete in the north-west corner, whatever are the limits of the map.


I'll try to be online tomorrow afternoon.

 

[The Last Conformist]

The northern border looks OK, but do we really need that much of Nubia?

 

[MaisseArsouye]

I think we do. Don't forgot most buildable terrain will be along Nile River. So it can't be too short. With this map, we can include both Kush and Nubia. It will give more varity to the game. Egyptian will have to figth the Hyksôs AND be carefull of southern civs

 

[Arne]

I think we do. Don't forgot most buildable terrain will be along Nile River. So it can't be too short. With this map, we can include both Kush and Nubia. It will give more varity to the game. Egyptian will have to figth the Hyksôs AND be carefull of southern civs

Do you really think, Kush AND Nubia is needed? IIRC, the sceanrio is about reuniting egypt /about 2nd Intermediate period, not about the highs of the 18th dynasty. So the third and fourth nile cataract is not needed on map for conquering (by egypt). I personaly think, if we choose to add that much land in south, we also need more land in the north.

Btw, Crete don't need to bee added on the correct location. You could simply put it in mediterraneum, on the upper left corner of the map. I think, if crete would situated in correct position our minoans *never* will choose sailing to egypt...

Just my opinion.