The Nile Gift - scenario creation thread

[Takhisis]

Sounds simple, but if it is that simple and "Hattian" means "he from Hattusas", what language is "Hattusas"? From what cames that and what dos it mean? ...

Hattusas is the capital of the Hittite Empire, also known as Hatti.
If anyone wants more info on Hittites, I have two books on them, so just PM me.

 

[LouLong]

Well, no hard feelings against starting during the Second Intermediate Era then.

OK, considering the civs some want incoporated I will change the map to include Kreta, Cilicia, Cyprus and NE Syria to include parts of Mitanni. Then another part of the scenario can include the geopolitics that would really start under Thutmosis III.

Maisse : nice maps you've got there. And made me think Kush is worth using, as it acted as a buffer zone between Egypt and Nubia. Funny that your map shows nearly what I had in mind : division of Egypt along globally the same lines.
But I don't really understand what you have in the delta with the XV and XVIth (IIRC) dynasties. Does that mean they both existed in the delta when the Hyksos arrived and were all parts of the same "game" ?

It would be interesting to start finding leaderheads and units for the civs we know will be incorporated now :

- Kush
- Kreta (the new palaces era starts about the same time of the Hyksos invasions so that's handy)
- Sea people (Cilicia and maybe a bit of Cyprus)
- Mitanni
- Nubia (and Kush)
- Lybians
- Arabs/Beduins
- Hyksos
- and maybe some small Syrian kings and some coastal cities as they became soon afterwards the sphere of influence and conflict of all the major kingdoms and I don't think we would like to let Hyksos have too large a base in Levant.
- Cyprus : Arne, do you have any infos on them ? For honestly I know nothing about Cyprus for that period.


@ the last conformist : honestly I have downloaded it and wanted to try it (v0.5) even before we spoke of this one but I had to releasequickly the Boer War beta and to install and train on Eric_A's HoF for a PBEM so I haven't had the time yet but will soon.
But indeed I think it would be more interesting if we had more diverse cultures and strategies (research, war) in this scenario. It needs more balancing but it gives much more replayability value.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I don't know too much of the 2nd Intermediate, but yes, I believe a number of the dynasties were in reality rival kingdoms rather than one another's successors.

I'm a bit wary of expanding the map to include Mitanni et consortes - I fear we may lose the focus on Egypt - but if everyone else wants to do it, I'm not gonna be a funkiller and insist.

 

[LouLong]

???? I thought you were the one that absolutely wanted Mitanni in ????????????
I might need to sleep more (bad g/f, bad g/f who says Bad civ3, bad Civ3 !).

 

[LouLong]

I also think that this could be a great scenerio.

Utah ! You are a nice and helpful person and you have done much in this community so let me be honest with you and give you a word of advice :

NEVER say in a scenario thread that could require new units that you feel it could be a grat scenario ! Or do so at your own risks

 

[The Last Conformist]

???? I thought you were the one that absolutely wanted Mitanni in ????????????

What? No, I see no particular point in including Mitanni in a scenario about the 2nd Intermediate. I don't think extending the scope into the imperialistic phase of the New Kingdom would work well - there's no guarantee Egypt will be reunited by the right faction!

 

[LouLong]

Indeed I was wrong. Was it Arne ?
OK tomorrow I will go back to Messenger...

 

[Takhisis]

2 things:
You could make it playable only by one branch of the Egyptian Empire (the one that actually won all the wars), like in RFRE.
The kingdoms in Syria could be taken out of the Bible: Arameans, Amorrites, Cananeans, Philisteans, etc.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

But I don't really understand what you have in the delta with the XV and XVIth (IIRC) dynasties. Does that mean they both existed in the delta when the Hyksos arrived and were all parts of the same "game" ?

I confirm what the Last Conformist said, Delta was divided into differents kingdoms, each having its own dinasty. This made the invasion by the Hyksos much easier

 

[Arne]

Hattusas is the capital of the Hittite Empire, also known as Hatti.

Hm, that was an answer, but not the reply to the "question".



If Mitanni/Hurri should be in or not depends on the map (scale + cut-out(?))and time span, I think.

a) Map: Since Cyprus will be on map, the eastern mainland vis-à-vis could be ruled by Hurri, even if this would be not "correct" in historical view. The "Empire" never was that large, but the hurri influence spread out there.

b) Time span: If you coose Thutmoses (I or III)/Hatschepsut to be egyptian leader... under Thutmoses III rule Egypt Empire grow up to the bank of the Euphrates. The Egypts even cross the River and battles the Hurris, but the Euphrates still was the border. This would be a more epic scenario, from reuniting Egypt to the biggest Egypt Empire (sceanrio time span = ~1570 - 1448).

If Ahmose is the egypt Leader, then the sceanrio may be focus on reuniting Egypt at the end of Second Intermediate Era and founding the New Kingdom and the 18th dynasty. If thats the case, there is no absolute need for Hurri beeing on that map. (sceanrio time span = ~1570 - 1525).

@Crate/Cyprus: Crete could have some special luxury to trade with, Cyprus was the main digging area for copper in bronce age.

 

[Takhisis]

Hm, that was an answer, but not the reply to the "question".

You asked what Hattusas was, so I answered that. If there´s something else you want to ask, please ask me again.

 

[Takhisis]

Cyprus was the main digging area for copper in bronce age.

Copper was also mined in the Siani and in Nubia. The Egyptians sent a war expedition into the Sinai just to capture its copper/gold mines, so the peninsula should be a great mining centre on the map.

 

[Arne]

You asked what Hattusas was,

No, sorry, I didn't. Please read again: I asked (for some reasons) what "Hattusas" means and from which language it comes.

LouLong, have you allready ideas aboout wonders? Is there need for some ideas?

 

[Takhisis]

Hattusas seems to be a Hittite name, but the city was already there and I don´t have a clue as to what the word means.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Come on guys, let's keep this topic alive !

About the time we agree on these :

• second intermediary
• begins whith Egypt divided into 4-6 littles kingdoms
• Hyksos are ready to take over the Delta

We stil must decide :

Name of the Egyptian leader. I would go with Ahmosis. Hatchepsout, Thoutmôsis III or Amenophis III are main other choices.

Neighbouring civs in this list :
Hitites ( maybe too far )
Lybia
Kush / Nubia
Crete
Hyksos
Mitanni
Cyprus
Cilicia
Arabs / Beduins
Sea People
Syrian kingdoms : Arameans, Amorrites, Cananeans, Philisteans ( aren't they Sea People ? )

 

[Arne]

About the time we agree on these :

• second intermediary
• begins whith Egypt divided into 4-6 littles kingdoms
• Hyksos are ready to take over the Delta

Well, I'm still thinking, the Hyksos should allready start with the Nile Delta occupied, so I disagree on that last point. The map area at the start could be something, like thisone, you posted some days ago:

On Civs: IMHO the civs wich are involved or not, depends on the era we coose and on map scale.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'd favour a smaller map.

 

[LouLong]

I am still here, just have been a bit busy with other stuff.

On the main topic which interests us here.

1/ I saw Supa kindly uploaded some Pharaoh' stuff we might use (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128069)

2/ for the leader, I think we should stop right before Thutmosis III as it is actually a new era (Egypt has been reunited, is very strong and plays a geopolitical role) whereas I think we are more interested here in the difficult times prior to that.
Anyway since we have different Egyptian factions we need different leaders so this is IMHO a false problem.

3/ for the map, what I had in mind was more like this which is merely a cropping of the map posted by Maisse Arsouye. Would that be OK for you guys ?
About the Philistines, they were not in Palestine then but were probably in Cilicia and part of Cyprus so that's why I included Cilicia (but that appears as an island to force them to us ships (they were Sea People after all) but we could create a resource in Palestine for them to motivate their "invasion" which could represent their migration as well. About the Hyksos I really favor them being NOT in the delta yet for the following reasons : 1/ this can give the feeling of urgency for the players who choose the Egyptian factions and the will of revenge which I found is very common among players 2/ because they capture cities, they will have to quell the population, face a stronger culture and if Egyptians succeed in capturing the cities back there will be a feeling of liberation (= happy people instead of resistors). On the other hand there are also problems such as the fact the Hyksos capital would remain in Southern Syria and (I have tested this in Reconquista, the AI never (AFAIK) changes capital locations even if the cost of a new palace is extremely low.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

2/ for the leader....

You're right. I'll try to find leader names for the parallel dinasties.

3/ for the map, what I had in mind was more like this which is merely a cropping of the map posted by Maisse Arsouye. Would that be OK for you guys ?

Ok for me, of course

About the Philistines, how could a ressources motivate their invasion and only theirs If it's possible, I would like to know how because it could help me for other scenarios.

About the Hyksos, I agree 100% with you. For the capital, maybe they could start with just Avaris in the Delta ?

 

[The Last Conformist]

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