The Nile Gift - scenario creation thread

[LouLong]

Nice to know I am missed !

Sorry for the delay. I have been real busy and just came for short whiles, mostly to PBEM threads actually.

I have not given up on it. Actually I have worked quite a bit on the civilopedia and pediaicon files.
I have added all "for sure" units, new resources such as granite, papyrus (or reed), the civs, some impro (mostly from Supa's conversions) and many texts.

On the other hand I apologize for not really sharing in.

Anyway now the time, civs, etc... are chosen the next step is definitely the tech-tree, gvt and improvements and we can discuss these at length while I advance on the txt files (I have not been able to focus on them for long so they are far from complete, and of course, improvements and gvts haven't been touched/changed at all.

So propositions for the tech-tree and gvt welcome.

One wild idea might be to have a gvt called Pharaoh (aka the Great House) but with a specificity along the Gods maybe for instance Amon-centered gvts for the "Egyptian" dynasties while maybe a Seth-centered one for the Hyksos as they started focusing on this god.

 

[LouLong]

BTW if needed I can attach the txt files for those interested so they can check or request changes.
For the pedia, as must as possible I try to use wikipedia texts...

 

[The Last Conformist]

It would be nice if you could upload what you have.

As for gov'ts, my immediate suggestion is that the Egyptians start out with something pretty forgetable, but can switch to something better later, whereas the Hyksos have something moderately good all the time.

 

[ImhotepII]

whats up?!

last entry november.....
are you folks still working on this?


just found the thread searching throuh the maps, btw MaisseArsouye great works!!!

so up till now this sounds like a perfect scenario.
egypt, well always my favourite, and the 2nd Intermediate Period.

as far as i worked my way throuh the thread, i understand you want to cover the time period from around 1600 to 1551, the beginning of the new kingdom.

much has been said before, but i guess i just make a summary, so maybe you start working on this scenario again


at the end of the old kingdom, once united egypt fell apart into many smaller kingdoms all struggling to gain power over one another (about 1730BC).

In this diversion small groups of foreigners, mostly from palastine and syria, once in egyptian service as traders, workers and also soldiers,
founded smaller kingdoms in the eastern delta (the so called 14th dynasty).
one of them Nehesi ruled from Auaris. so to take auaris as sarting location for the hyksos would be exellent

at about 1650BC one of these foreign rulers seized the throne of memphis (formal historic end of the middle kingdom) and the 2nd meantime? started.
later egytian historic called them "rulers of the foreign counties", egyptian:"Heka-Chasut", greek: Hyksos.

The hyksos rulers themselves are divided into the
great Hyksos (15th dynasty), ruling from the eastern delta to south of palastine (capital Aurais), they were accepted as egytian Pharaohs.
and the lesser Hyksos (16th dynasty), local dynasties in middle and upper egypt, all followers of the "Hyksos Pharaoh".

For a political overview:

lower egypt

eastern delta to south palastine: Great Hyksos city of Auaris

western delta: smaller local rulers city of Xois

midd egypt to upper egypt

from around Heliopolis to Herakleopolis: lesser Hyksos

from around Abydos to Assuan: Theban rulers

still some smaller states like a city called Gebelein,
south! of Thebes under lesser Hyksos rule.

south

maybe as much north as elephantine: Nubians city of Kerma

western desert

the oaisis states, traiding posts for the Hyksos - Numidian trade.


so far in egypt itself there should be following civs:


- 14th dynasty in Xios with cyties in the western delta

- great hyksos in Aurais, cities in the eastern delta and south palastine

the lesser hyksos, best 2 or 3 smaller civs, allied to the great hyksos, like
- memphis plus 2 or 3 cities,
- herakleonpolis plus 2 or 3 cities and
- gebelein south of thebes plus maybe one city.

-17th dynastie in thebes, from abydos to maybe assuan, exept for the gebelein state

- numids, i`m not sure what you mean with kush? for as far as i remember kush existed in the 800s BC?! and then ruled over egypt.
but the numids could be divided into 2 fractions, one kingdom from kerma and one maybe from semna.

- oasis citysates, maybe 3 diffrent for Bahrjia dachla and charga, all with mutial protection by numids and hyksos to represent the traiding connection,
or just one oasis kingdom with the 3 cities. they should not be able to produce setlers or great offensive units but could maybe stand some defence if one might want to capture them.


as for outer egyptian civs:


as you said,

- the minoans, for traiding issues, they had also been traiding with the hyksos.

- some palestine city states, maybe some free some under hyksos influence?

- mitanni, strong influence of the north east palastine, but i think they should be more or less unagressive and for trade purposes.

- maybe some bedouin staes in the vast deserts with raiding parties to go for egypts riches?



hm lost the track .....

well back to the chronicles...


to set the ruler would be difficult.....

Kahmosis or Ahmosis?

the war against the Hyksos started with Sekenenre,
he started to fight the lesser Hyksos to the north and south of Thebes when finally his son Kahmsosis took over and managed to capture the foreign ruled land up to auaris.
at aurais i have 2 diffrent versions, one khamosis could not capture the city itself but Ahmosis succeded. the other version khamosis captured auaris and ahmosis just drove the last hyksos out of egypt and the southern palastine.

also nubia sould have its part, since the Hyksos and nubia were good traiding parthners. although the request for help from the Hyksos was captured by the thebans at the oasis tour.

i guess it would be best to divide i guess thats waht you predicted with nubia AND kush nubia into Kerma (up to 2nd catharactus)and Semna (from second to 1st) Semna should then be allied with the hyksos and later to be conquered by the thebans, but stoping at the 2nd catharactus.
so nubia would still be a a treath.


well this way or the other, i think Ahmosis should be the choice, for he has to finally finish the scenario with the reunion of egypt.
wich sould at the end reach from south palastine to the 2nd catharactus at buhen.

i guess for victory there should be special cities you must have conquered and besides maybe some culture or domination points needed.

also a turn max would be of use i guess.
but please make enough turns, so theres room for great wonders and city improvments and all that stuff, not just a plain warfaring scenario


hm well so far to that, haven´t said much that haden`t been said before, but maybe you will start on this scenario again



some more facts:

the hyksos tought the egytians horse and chariot use, the sythe? sword (well its sichelschwert in german) the composite archer bow and some new gods.

during the war against the hyksos there had been merchenarys from mykenai fighting for egypt, so maybe a unconquerable mykenai city and some special resource to produce a combat unit (like the obisidian mexican ally style in the mayan scenario)

thebes/waset was the city of the god Month
just in the 12th dynasty Amun (the god of the carnac temple) was really established in Thebes and soon became the god of all egypt. still month remaind the "master of thebes"
so the earlyest phase of the great karnac temple goes back to the 2100BCs and was expanded through the centuries.
i havent found real data on the buildings during the 17th dynasty but there are temple inscitions of ahmose mentioned.

- maybe the should be a month temple (wonder) in thebes and the player should build the karnak one?

also there were already tombs in thebes west, but of course not the real kings valley.

the "opet" festival could also be a wonder

of course the should be the pyramids, sphinx,

also maybe a ptah temple in memphis, for he was one of the more important gods before amun made his was.

ah can`t think of anymore tonight its already past 3:30am...


so last to say...

I REALLY HOPE THAT YOU WILL FINISH THIS SCENARIO

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Yes please don't say this is dead.....

 

[Supa]

Good, I was thinking about digging up this thread.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Well, it's in a coma.

It's continued fate is pretty much down to whether LouLong turns up again.

 

[ImhotepII]

a coma? that is no good, some one should reanimate it

found some recources that could be needed for an egytian scenario

- lead , rare only to be found east of thebes
- tin, also east of thebes but not as rare as lead
- copper, the copper mines had been east of thebes east of the 1st catharactus and at the sinai peninsula
- gold, of course, to be found in the eastern dessert mostly in the northern nubian territory
- Gems, in the eastern dessert and sinai
- Iron, in my map there is only one! source north of the 1st catharactus and one! near gaza
- Papyrus, to be found all along the nile, more in the delta and the further south the lesser
- Sandstone, necessary for the great temples and buildings, northeast of memphis and along the nile from edfu down into nubia
- limestone, necessary for special buildings like the chappel blance, to be found al along the nile mostly east of it.
- granite, for the obeliscs and special satues, only to be found south of the 1st catheractus
- Basalt sorry don`t know the english name... to be found at fajum giza and north memphis, should be necessery to build statures
- horses, for the chariots, but should be very rare and maybe not to get by thebes in the beginning
- Desert glas this is some green silicat glas found in the western desert, tut anch amun hat a scarabaeus made of it and earlyer kings also had it. it should be located at that western oasis and could only be traded to thebes once the oasis states have been captured, then enabling thebes to build some ceremonial wonder.
- fine timbers to be found in palestine, needed for fine woodworkings
- incens schould be limited to palestine and maybe some of the oasis states, but best only palestine so you would have to trade for it.
- ivory only to be found in south nubia
- slaves maybe as a resource, so a city with slaves will be able to build a certain building spawning slave units
- beer the egytian beer as first and simplest luxury resource
- salt from the sinai peninsula
- flaxs for weaving clothes

and the usual stuff wheat dyes fish and so on

 

[The Last Conformist]

If by "Basalt" is meant the igneous rock, it's simply basalt in English.

 

[ImhotepII]

thx TLC

yes i meant the basalt stone .)


i was checking maps and stuff while i found the resources that would suite that egyptian era.

also placed some cities on MaisseArsouye egyte-plus map.

file:
http://de.geocities.com/istian77da/civ_zip/egyptspez.zip


i had some minor changes done:

- moved crete more west, so its western part is no longer on the map, reasons for this are: there were no bigger minoan settlements in western crete, also it is placed a bit more remote now, since it schould be far more to the north west.

- i left the santorini island, although i think you already dispached of the seafolks to raid upon egypt.

- deleted some of the ressources, well the new ones will have to be added and thoughtfull distributed on the map.

changed some minor teritory, like some plains to desert and stuff.


to the political situation:

i just renamed the origin civs to show their area on the map.


- the Hyksos,13 cities capital Auaris, they have cities up to south palastine (i know pelusium is a later name but there must have been a city back then im sure )

- the Thebans, 8 cities capital Waset, they rule from Abydos to Ombos, exept for Gebelein

- the Minoans, 6 cities capital Knossos, have supreme power over crete, should get some invincible deff units. for trading issus.

- Sais, 5 cities, capital sais (schould have been Xios but sais is better placed)

- Memphis, 4 cities, schould be vasall to the hyksos

- Krokodilopolis, 5 cities, also vasall to the hyksos

- hermupolis, 4 cities, independent? as buffer state between the theban and hyksos teritority. should be the first goal of counquering for the thebans, maybe some horse resource near hermupolis that will enable the warchariots.

- Per hator, 1 city, a outpost for the hyksos south of thebes

- Nubia Inferior, 9 cities, capital Mirgissa, they schould be allied to the hyksos and conquered by the thebans.

- Nubia Superior, for now 10 cities (but more space) capital Kerma,
traiding partners to all egypt, also possible threat to thebes once it has captured nubia inferior.

- Oasis States, 5 cities, capital Dachla, these provided the trade between the hyksos and the nubian lands. maybe they should be conquered by the thebans in order to prevent numidian and hyksos plotting.

- Palestine tribes, 4 tribes random citie numbers, should still be thought over, who will be allied to the hyksos who will be opposing the hyksos etc.

- Bedouin tribes, one city at the far west oasis, here could be the only source of Desert stone, the city schould be unconquerable by good defending units, once thebes would have the oasis states it could discover the bedouins and start trading for the desert glas, needed for some great ceremonial wonder.
also there could be bedouin raiding partys from time to time stealing egyptian goods.

- lybian tribes, 4 cities at the western med coast. but i think they could as well be left out, or used as constant threat to the western delta.

sum:

17 civs so far, although palestine should be changed in some ways.


some speacial things that would make it even more realistic i don`t know if they are possible...


- a special road, that can`t be pillaged. so would be permanent even if the ai wents rampant...
this would be for the oasis trade routes.


- different dessert and hill terrain,
one dessert terain that can be passed by units, providing shields and trade,
the other dessert unpassable for all units exept maybe the bedouin raiders.
same goes for the hills

usage: the egytian dessert was a dangerous place to travel, thats why most travlers and even the army stuck to the few prepared desert routes (there had been water suplies stored in the dessert) with some dessert and hill terrain that can`t be crossed by almost all units, it would focus the wars and the travels to right where they schould be: along the nile and on the desert tracks.
it would be quite unaccurate if the thebes army could just march through the eastern dessert and attacking auaris, the only way to get to auaris schould be along the nile and thus through all the hyksos allies there.


- settling should be restrickted to graslands only, so no settlements on hills or plains. thus the ai would just go rampant settling most of the map.


- trading through sea tiles? and coast tiles?

i don`t know if there can be made a diffrence...
for every egytian city schould be able to trade through the coastal souares of the nile. maybe a harbour is to be placed in every city.

to have oversea trade, lets say by sea to palestine and to crete there should be a trade wonder or something, that enables the trade, available when maybe memphis is conquered.

so the question is can there be sea trade on coast tiles and no on sea tiles?
and then a building wich will enable all seas trade?


i am sure if i post enough stuff loulong, TlC and MaisseArsouye will go on working on this scenario, at least to get me silent

 

[MaisseArsouye]

I would really like this scenario to be released. But I'm not that good at making scenarios...

I think you're doing well so long

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Come back soon Loulong, I'd hate to see another veteran like you dissapear...

 

[pinktilapia]

Well, don't you have a nice team here? ImphotepII, take it over!

 

[ImhotepII]

well i guess it would be no good idea

i have never made a scenario before and this is "real good stuff" so to say, should be created by someone who knows what he is doing
i have quite some ideas and historic knowlege to make a historical map, but i lack complete knowlege of creating a scenario

although MAs map was just to good so i went on developing it further.

have it now with snoopys terrain, and resources i found somewhere in the forum and i think i`ve imported zivs from tams mediteranean mod, and the resource list from pinks rfre and dunno what else, this is sort of mixed together from everywhere

http://de.geocities.com/istian77da/egyptsp.zip

i`ve altered the terrain

- dessert can`t be crossed
- floodplains work now as dessert that can be crossed, and provide only shields no food.
- hm added some resources with icons, but not their usage (strategic or luxury stuff)
- changed the city grafics a bit around



hm i came to wonder if it was possible to have a desert that functions like sea, like units going in there will be destoyed at the end of turn.

but i couldn`t figure how to change the ocean terain so it would look like dessert and fit without water eges into the other dessert terrain....

also the units, i guess they`d have to be marked as sea moving, and that would not work as well... for they schould only cross the dessert ocean and not the real sea....

 

[Stormrage]

Um, floodplains producing shields? How come?

 

[pinktilapia]

Interesting idea to have part of the desert passable using 'floodplains'. I imagine you will have then a resource to represent the Nile Valley's fertile soils, that will be preplaced on the floodplains there.

I don't think you need to be expert on anything to make a good mod (the technical part is easy enough the learn, and I and many other folks around here -I am sure- would have no problem explaining you the basics). The thing the lead modder need is TIME and DEDICATION (a lot of it!!!). A zest of seriousness is also required to so that the whole work is not wasted by an early abandon, as too often seen around alas. LouLong may still come back, but I really think this scenario deserves to go ahead, now!

 

[ImhotepII]

well pink,
actually there are almost no floodplains in the nile vallex, as i used MAs map the nile is shipable, and floodplanes (looking like desert) would not fit at that scale.

MA did put rivers along the nile wich i guess should show the fertile flooding land.

if there was a floodplain grafic that would fit in like grassland... it would be something else and one could have a real realistic nile valley...

but as is said i treid switching the terain grafics around, copying from here replacing there, all i learned about that :

if i try to fit in lets say a dessert grafic to be tundra, i get nasty water eges and things will look all wrong... also the grafic may crash at some spots due to diffrent colours or something....


so i guess it will have to stay this way:

the desert (seths realm) is unpassable for all units, it provides no food comerce or shields.

the Desertlands (floodplanes) are passable, but to show their desert origin, there is no food and no irrigation on them, only shields and comerce with mines and road.


ive made me some lists of possible wonders, units, governments, resources, some techs and i guess i`ll be going through the grafics forum later on to see what could be used.




well to take over the creation of the mod, i don`t think it would be of any use...
i have actually no idea where to start and what to do, also this is not my "babe" but LLs, MAs and LTCs...

if they allow i will try to be of help as far as i can, for this is really a mod that interests me a lot.

and as you said pink: "The thing the lead modder need is TIME and DEDICATION (a lot of it!!!)"

well i might have enough time, dedication hm i always try to do my best,
but the problem is "lead modder" cause i for sure have absolutly no idea where to lead to


but i guess i`ll just go on altering the biq file i have so far.
and when Lou Long gets back maybe they can use some of my work


edit: almost forgot, and as long as i keep posting here the thread will not vanish into the depts of the forum

 

[The Last Conformist]

The little rivers are there to allow irrigation and big cities.

 

[ImhotepII]

hm the link i posted does not work

does anyone know where i can get free webspace that will allow me to upload also bigger files? that geocities thing is resticted to 5mb max upload, the file was 4.9 but somehow it`s not working.....



and on goes the egypt adventure


i thought the follwoing governments types could be used somehow:

- Pharaonic Hyksos, since the Hyksos rulers were accepted by most smaller dynasties and, in the beginning, also by Thebes.

- Dynastic Kings, for all smaller kingdoms, that will have to be conquered by thebes.

- Pharaonic Rule, to be gained by thebes to reflect their will to absoute power over egypt.

- Pharaonic Imperialism, to be gained by thebes once they "freed" egypt up to auaris, to implement their new more militaristic ways and to gain special units for the conquest of nubia.

- Tribal Kingdom, for the oaisis states, the bedouins, the lybians and the palestine states

- Nubian Kingdom, for the two nubian states, with units that will defend against a pharaonic thebes but then will fall against a pharaonic imperialism.


Military

there had been major inovations during the hyksos rule, changes in wappons and armor, the chariot and since egypt now started to be a global player also siege wappons.
the egyptian army consited mostly of recruts, just during the hyksos reign they started to build up a more trained military force. that then allowed more specified units.
the is no chivalry, no horseback riding at that time, so i guess the only fast units should be the chariots.


possibe units?

chariots (obtained from hyksos)
scimitar sword men (obtained from hyksos)
composit archer (obtained from hyksos)

archer
Spearmen
Slingshouters
waraxe men
warclub men
sword men

ladder siege man
protected siege men (as a ram?)
-these two maybe thought as a bombard unit that can destoy city improvments like walls


some special units could be:

pharaoh himself, for he was always along with his troops
Royal Court guard, a defence unit
Pharaohs men, an atack unit by foot to assist pharaoh
Pharaohs Chariots, an atack unit by wheel


naval units:

well the egyptian marine was none
they just recruited all ships that were able to transport troups. so
naval warfare was reduced to ship to ship soldier combat and archers.
i guess ships with rams were to come later during the new kingdom.

possible naval units

papyrus raft carry 1 unit
transport ship (recruited trade ship) carry 4 units
war ship (converted trade ship) carry 2 limited attack ability


possible techs?:

better helmet
better shield (wooden/leather)
new light body armour (leather)
new composit bow
new special sword (scimitars)
better battle axe
new chariots (horse)
new siege shelter (mobile shelter unit, maybe as a ram)
better siege ladders
professional army, to enable the special units?
new marines units, to enable atack from ships
naval tech to enable the warship

etc

 

[ImhotepII]

uh right TLC i always forget that "fresh" water is needed for irrigation, and that coast is not handeled as fresh water even if used a s a river


hm thoughts on the wonders:

how many can there be?!
i would love to put them everywhere

wonders already build at start:

Great fortresses: (50%deff to city)
in the middel kingdom the south was well fortyfied, with maijor fortresses
some could be used to state the difficulty for thebes to gain control of nubia

at Abu, first catheract the "door" to nubia
at Buhen
at Mirgissa, 2nd catheract
at Semna, the other nubia next to mirgissa, to stop venturing to far into nubia.

to reflect the difficulty against the hyksos fortresses also

at Auaris, capital and main goal against the hyksos
at Sharuhen, as last hyksos stand



Great Temples? : (providing happieness and trade?)
i would love to see many important temples throughout the nile valley, but
i don`t know if this woudn`t be just all too much.....

i checked where important gods had sort of their "home temple"

Ptah at Memphis
Bastet at Bubastis
Osiris at Abydos
Month at Waset
Mut at Waset
Horus at Edfu
Hathor at Dendera
Osiris at Abydos
Thot at Hermupolis
Sobek at Krokodilopolis
Re at Heliopolis
bastet at Bubastis
Seth at Auaris
Uadjet at Buto

these temples could provide some hampieness and some trade since the egyptian temples had always been sort of economic powers.
maybe some even speial advances like the enabling of certain special units?
since the egyptian armys were always named after gods (rtc the RA divison, the Soobek achers) maybe all these temples could produce an army, for not more than 2 units to be uploaded, at a rather large time scale?

Pyramids and Sphinx at giza, have to be placed for sure....
only i think they should have no special feature, maybe being a tourist atraction? and providing thus more income.

oasis oracle of Siwah, egyptianzied lybian kings ruled over siwah, the amun oracle was established during the new kingdom, but well there might as well have been another oracle to a lybian god before. it would give the lybians some special bonuses in trade and maybe some more.



wonders to be build:


1. Temple of Karnak, to establish Amun as God of all egypt. puts a Amun shrine in every city (lessens corruption?),

the karnack temple had been startet during the middle kingdom, it was enlarged during the centuries.
when thebes started to gain control of all egypt amun soon became the greatest god of the land.


2. Rock cave Graves of West thebes, puts a graveyeard to every city

the cave graves had been finally estabished during the 2nd intermid period,
although the valley of the kings was historicaly stared with amenophis I. ahmoses son, but it`s not for certain that ahmosis was not buried there as well.


3. 2nd palace at memphis, reduces corruption etc
memphis had always been sort of the administrative capital to egypt, while thebes had been the cultural capital providing the spiritual balance of the land.

4. the Minoan Expedition, to enable oversea trade,
this would only work if harbour trade through coasttiles is always possible or could be handled sepretly.

5. Seizure of Memphis, to create an army from time to time,
for the Pharaonic Ruler with memphis ressource, a monument that declares the theban right of egypt.

6. The New Kingdom, to be build to win, res: Buhen auaris Scharuen Memphis etc


there could also be some trade wonders for the bedouin states and the minoans.

hm will think of some more, and try to put some of them into the biq file.

hope i`ll find out how to add then