The Offtopicgrad Soviet: A Place to Discuss All Things Red

RE: US and DPRK: Yep, 2 million civilians. Nope, South Korea provoked the North.

The Korean Atrocity: Forgotten US War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity

The official story is that the Korean War began when the Soviet-backed North invaded the South on June 25, 1950. The US then came to the South’s aid. As is the case with most official US history the story is incomplete, if not downright false. Korea:Division, Reunification, and US foreign Policynotes: “The best explanation of what happened on June 25 is that Syngman Rhee deliberately initiated the fighting and then successfully blamed the North. The North, eagerly waiting for provocation, took advantage of the southern attack and, without incitement by the Soviet Union, launched its own strike with the objective of capturing Seoul. Then a massive U.S. intervention followed.”
...
Two million North Korean civilians, 500,000 North Korean soldiers, one million Chinese soldiers, one million South Korean civilians, ten thousand South Korean soldiers and 95,000 UN soldiers (516 Canadians) died in the war. The fighting on the ground was ferocious as was the UN air campaign. US General MacArthur instructed his bombers “to destroy every means of communication and every installation, factory, city and village” in North Korea except for hydroelectric plants and the city of Rashin, which bordered China and the Soviet Union, respectively.
 
RE: US and DPRK: Yep, 2 million civilians. Nope, South Korea provoked the North.

The Korean Atrocity: Forgotten US War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2013/07/28/who-really-started-the-korean-war/

This article also seems to support your position on who started the war, though I'm a little unclear about the nature of the attacks mentioned in it by the South. Is the article referring to internal counterinsurgency operations by the South as being the cause of the war or did the South actually cross the border and attack the North?

As to who did in reality fire that shot, Bruce Cumings, head of the history department at the University of Chicago, gave us the definitive answer in his two-volume The Origins of the Korean War, and The Korean War: A History: the Korean war started during the American occupation of the South, and it was Rhee, with help from his American sponsors, who initiated a series of attacks that well preceded the North Korean offensive of 1950. From 1945-1948, American forces aided Rhee in a killing spree that claimed tens of thousands of victims: the counterinsurgency campaign took a high toll in Kwangju, and on the island of Cheju-do – where as many as 60,000 people were murdered by Rhee’s US-backed forces.
 
We may never be fully clear on the origins of who shot first, but IF Stone's The Hidden History of the Korean War highlights in a very reporter-like way, who wanted that war (US) and who didn't (China, USSR).

It is a must-read, imo.
 
Not sure what kind of excuse a provocation is to start a war and then get killed a bunch.
 
So, you're position is that it's okay to kill 2 million civilians on orders from a foreign government?

Trying to figure your position here, since for 3-5 years the South had been provoking the North at the behest of the US.
 
So, you're position is that it's okay to kill 2 million civilians on orders from a foreign government?

Trying to figure your position here, since for 3-5 years the South had been provoking the North at the behest of the US.

The level of black and white in your writings is undermining your persuasiveness fwiw.
 
The level of people's acceptance of US war crimes, acts of violence and prison treatment undermines their.believability.

My generation has seen the entirety of modern civilization be one dramatic "this is it!" declaration of truth after another only to watch them all fall on their faces.

We've come to understand that the most black and white these movements are, the more A) wrong they are and B) violently so. So we as a generation are rightly skeptical.

Enter you, RT.

You do this thing where you assign all real blame to one side, always the same side, then bend over backward to make excuses for everyone who adopts the mantle of anything in opposition.

North Korea, which is the quintessential oppressive state, starving its citizens to death because Kim Jong Il was so full of himself he thought he could out-do his agricultural experts and gave orders to make his people farm a certain way. When that resulted in failure, he had the people he ordered carry out his plans to be punished. He even exhumed a body to execute the corpse.

But you say we can't criticize that because the US killed people of the same nationality. Did you know 500,000 South Korean civilians were killed by the north because they were in populations that resisted DPRK attempts at drafting them? But of course, they had to to fight off the imperial devil America, so that's okay.


Here's your logical fallacy: "if thing is bad, then other thing is good". This dichotomy is so false it's painful.

Most of us here are smart enough to know that two things opposed to each other can both be bad, and good, in shared and different ways and in proportion and out of proportion ways.

But when you take the 64 combo matrix I just described in the above sentence and turn it into a 2 option binary.... sigh.
 
I'm sorry, Hygro, but what again is your point?

My generation saw the world's largest land mass, once a mighty and productive socialist republic, fall flat on its face because it was soft on its own communism and allowed itself to fall prey to "Great Power Chauvanism" and play the capitalist game with socialist production.

My generation also saw the US go from a creditor nation to a debtor nation; saw a once productive workforce restratified to service work and unemployment and we witnessed the largest accumulation of wealth into the fewest hands EVER.

Capitalism is destroying the planet and its people, it has rendered all that was once near and dear into commodities.

You know, maybe, though I doubt it, the DPRK can't take care of its people... it has been under economic blockade for decades, after all.

But the US CAN and it does NOT take care of its people.

I think that is the bigger crime.

Not "Black and White," but "Right and Wrong."

Edit: as for "your" generation and its skepticism... I am working with six college students who, when they graduate, will be joining our movement full-time. That's just little old me, in one place.
 
I received 99 red herrings and an answer ain't one.
 
Take it or leave it, Hygro... If you are so skeptical, why do you accept the official American story while rejecting alternative sources and viewpoints?

Edit: don't get me wrong... I love America, I love Americans. It pains me to see everyone jump on the anti-DPRK propaganda when it is clear the US keeps banging the war drums, and the DPRK knows the US won't try it if the US (the ONLY nation so far who has used nukes) thinks the DPRK is nuts enough to use nukes in its defense.

The US is the nation whose warships ply all of the known seas, who sells more arms worldwide than all other nations, who gives trillions to banks while its own citizens freeze and go hungry in the streets, whose mass-market food supply is so compromised that minors are getting type 2 (adult onset) diabetes.. hell, horses are getting diabetes!

I don't give a flying @#%*! about winning an argument on a game forum, I am just trying to add some perspective.
 
If you are so skeptical, why do you accept the official American story while rejecting alternative sources and viewpoints?
Because US government statistics are for the most part accurate and representative (along with being confirmed by other organizations), while DPRK government statistics would have you believe it was Best Korea?
Improving life for people in America is quite obviously an admirable goal, but I fail to see how a belief in the dignity of the person requires a defense -or even acceptance of- one of the most horrid governments the world has seen.
 
I am already actively fighting the most horrid government I have seen...

edit:
The US and North Korea are not the only viewpoints on DPRK

Granma International April 5 said:
*REFLECTIONS OF FIDEL
**Theduty to avoid a war in Korea
(Taken from (CubaDebate)*
A few days ago I mentioned the great challenges humanity is currently facing. Intelligent life emerged on our planet approximately 200,000 years ago, although new discoveries demonstrate something else.
This is not to confuse intelligent life with the existence of life which, from its elemental forms in our solar system, emerged millions of years ago.

A virtually infinite number of life forms exist. In the sophisticated work of the world’s most eminent scientists the idea has already been conceived of reproducing the sounds which followed the Big Bang, the great explosion which took place more than 13.7 billion years ago.

This introduction would be too extensive if it was not to explain the gravity of an event as unbelievable and absurd as the situation created in the Korean Peninsula, within a geographic area containing close to five billion of the seven billion persons currently inhabiting the planet.

This is about one of the most serious dangers of nuclear war since the October Crisis around Cuba in 1962, 50 years ago.

In 1950, a war was unleashed there [the Korean Peninsula] which cost millions of lives. It came barely five years after two atomic bombs were exploded over the defenseless cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki which, in a matter of seconds, killed and irradiated hundreds of thousands of people.

General Douglas MacArthur wanted to utilize atomic weapons against the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Not even Harry Truman allowed that.

It has been affirmed that the People’s Republic of China lost one million valiant soldiers in order to prevent the installation of an enemy army on that country’s border with its homeland. For its part, the Soviet army provided weapons, air support, technological and economic aid.
I had the honor of meeting Kim Il Sung, a historic figure, notably courageous and revolutionary.

If war breaks out there, the peoples of both parts of the Peninsula will be terribly sacrificed, without benefit to all or either of them. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea was always friendly with Cuba, as Cuba has always been and will continue to be with her.

Now that the country has demonstrated its technical and scientific achievements, we remind her of her duties to the countries which have been her great friends, and it would be unjust to forget that such a war would particularly affect more than 70% of the population of the planet.

If a conflict of that nature should break out there, the government of Barack Obama in his second mandate would be buried in a deluge of images which would present him as the most sinister character in the history of the United States. The duty of avoiding war is also his and that of the people of the United States.
 
to destroy every means of communication and every installation, factory, city and village

This quote appears on the internet solely as a quote - ie, no original source.
 
This quote appears on the internet solely as a quote - ie, no original source.

OMG! Holy @#%&! If it's not on the internet, it's not real.... :crazyeye:

All of those Koreans are still dead, those buildings were still destroyed.

How about some more on your terrible hellhole of DPRK.

...60 years ago North Korea won the war. But some 4 million people died many of them, civilians. Maybe it was more than 4 million, nobody knows exactly. The capital city Pyongyang was totally leveled to the ground. I did not want to hear loud music and long speeches. I wanted to pay tribute to those who lost their lives, by sitting quietly by the river covered by mist, listening to the tall grass. But during my 8 days in North Korea, I had very few moments of silence, almost no opportunity to reflect.

What have I seen in those 8 days in DPRK – in North Korea? I saw an enormous futuristic city, Pyongyang, the capital, built from the ashes. I saw enormous theatres and stadiums, a metro system deep below the ground (public transportation doubling as nuclear shelter, in case the city came under attack). I saw trolley buses and double-decker buses, wide avenues, unimaginably ample sidewalks, roller-skating rinks and playgrounds for children.
Statues and monuments were everywhere. The size of some boulevards and buildings were simply overwhelming. For more than a decade I lived in Manhattan, but this was very different grandeur. New York was growing towards the sky, while Pyongyang consisted of tremendous open spaces and massive eclectic buildings.

Outside the capital I saw green fields, and farmers walking home deep in the countryside. Clearly, there was no malnutrition among children, and despite the embargo, everyone was decently dressed.
I saw packed squares, with tens of thousands of people shouting slogans from the top of their lungs. I saw thousands of women in colorful traditional dresses waving their flags and ribbons, cheering when the command was given, welcoming us – international delegates. Marching next to me for peace, was a former US Attorney General, Ramsey Clark, and at my other side, the leader of one of the Indian Communist Parties. There were human rights lawyers from the United States and from all over the world, Turkish revolutionaries, and, for hard to understand reasons, several heads of the Ugandan military.

But I did not come here to march. I came here to film and to photograph, to see the faces of local people, to read what was written on those faces, to feel, to sense, and to try to understand.
Instead of loud cheers, I came to listen to the whispers, hoping to catch understated facial expressions, tiny signs of fear, of joy, of love and even of existentialist confusion.

The West, its policy makers and mass media, succeeded in creating an image of a dehumanized North Korea. They did it by blurring the faces. For decades North Koreans were being portrayed as inhabitants of some monstrous hermit empire where men, women and children all look alike, dress the same, behave like robots, never smile and do not look into each other’s eyes.

Before I came here, before I agreed to come, I explained to the organizers that I was not interested in all those elaborate fireworks and packed stadiums. I wanted to see a mom taking her child to school. I was longing to capture the faces of lovers at dusk, sitting side by side on some remote bench, whispering to each other those urgent words, those pledges that make life worth living; the same words, the same pledges, uttered all over the world.

Paradoxically, I was discouraged to do so. Instead I was asked to march. From a storyteller and a man who is used to document the world, I was converted into a delegate. And whenever the crowd spotted me, it cheered, and then I felt embarrassed, I was longing desperately to become invisible, or to at least find some hiding place. Not because I was doing something wrong, but simply because I was unaccustomed to such naked outbursts of enthusiasm directed at me.

Hmmmmmm.....
 
I don't give a flying @#%*! about winning an argument on a game forum, I am just trying to add some perspective.
People on this forum, because of this forum, have married one another, worked for one another, roomed with one another, traveled across the world to visit one another, changed each others' outlooks and perspectives on life for one another, provided emotional support for one another, educated one another.... We'd like you to stick around, you've been an awesome addition, but dismissing this place is your loss.

I was writing a bigger reply earlier but this is the most important part to me.
 
OMG! Holy @#%&! If it's not on the internet, it's not real.... :crazyeye:
These days, no, if an allegation this serious can't be sourced on the internet, it's not real. If it is, people would have been all over it years ago. Never presume you have discovered a massive conspiracy that everyone else turned a blind eye on.

On the other hand, just because something is on the internet, doesn't mean it's real. You need collaborating views, supporting evidences, the whole nine yards. One guy seeing "an enormous futuristic city" doesn't make Pyongyang enormous nor futuristic when everyone else sees empty "wide avenues" with no cars on them. The guy didn't say Pyongyang was buzzing with life, did he? That's because even propaganda has to be based on something tangible, however remotely.
 
@Hygro: not dismissing the forum, just saying I am offering the perspective. Don't care if anyone believes me, because you have all made up your minds about DPRK and that is a shame.

@Alassius: IF Stone's The Hidden History of the Korean War cites official communiques that state explicity the Air Force had "run out of targets" and had bombed every structure in the North they could.

But, still, those people are dead. Those buildings were destroyed.

All of the posters save Gary Childress and Cheezy have taken the mainstream media allegations of DPRK as gospel and you have already made up your minds.

Like I said, I can only put the data out there. I have no axe to grind.

America has a far worseoff, far less happier population. Quote me, I just said it on the internet.
 
This thread reminds me that I probably need to write a euthanasia statement at some point.
 
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