The Offtopicgrad Soviet: A Place to Discuss All Things Red

[Crezth]

Amnesty International: North Korea sucks

New York Times: Ministry of Love is real

North Korean Refugees dot Com: Citizens cannot leave the country legally, among other awful things...

Don't let all of this capitalist hogwash dishearten you, though, because according to North Korea, North Korea is Best Korea with no humans rights issues.

But hey, if North Korea has nothing to fear, surely they'll accept a UN Commission on the whole ordeal? Because, after all, the UNSC is 2/5ths proto-communist or formerly-communist, or friendly to the DPRK, so at least they could give a nice, unbiased report.

Hah, wrong. Even with Chinese support, Best Korea will have none of it! It's a plot put forward by "human scum." Well put, O ye noble defenders of Liberte!

And just for the record, what remains of the investigation is looking pretty grim for Best Korea.

So yeah, my point stands. Regardless of what the KCNA says about itself and its government, there seems to be a preponderance of evidence that North Korea really, really sucks for the people living there.

So, if this is the best that you Marxists can do, then... game over.

 

[Hygro]

("Insinuating" was probably the word I meant at the time.)

@Hygro: apols for the poor wording. The statistic I saw was for unrequested physician-assisted deaths.

No worries but what statistic?

 

[W|M]

Reindeer Thistle seems to think that any country that calls itself socialist is actually socialist (and North Korea doesn't even call itself socialist or communist anymore, just Juche). Here's some photos of North Korea:

Spoiler :

The North Korean government only lets you take the most attractive photos possible, so this is the best of the best of life there. Here are a few accounts of life in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I don't really see those as bad photographs. It just looks like an old peasant village. No one is pretending that life in DPRK is wonderful and modern. Even the most fervent defenders (of which I am not) of DPRK merely defend it as rationally distributing the meager resources it has at hand, having lost Soviet aid and being subjected to immensely destructive sanctions. There is no illusion that it is the equivalent to Western material wealth.

 

[Crezth]

Just to be clear, I'm not blasting the DPRK for being a 3rd world <snip>. You can't always help that and I know. I'm blasting it for its plentiful human rights abuses and its apparent disregard for its people's welfare.

Moderator Action: Inappropriate language removed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[timtofly]

It reminds me of the saying, "Anyone can build a nuke".

 

[ReindeerThistle]

It reminds me of the saying, "Anyone can build a nuke".

Yes, but real psychos actually use them...

And thanks, Crezth, for the links... I will get to them later.

Spoiler Joking :

3 years off your gulag sentence for posting them.

 

[Agent327]

Nice sidestep from "it's legal in Holland" to the problem with the American prison system.

Unrequested euthanasia is pretty scary, of course. I don't know anything about the reality of Dutch non-suicide euthanasia, but I do know when someone is "I'm not even gonna bring up"ing something to rhetorically/politically convince me in lieu of facts and analysis of those facts.

I thought "unrequested euthanasia" was a euphemism for cops shooting people like its their job OHWAIT.

Unrequested euthanasia is what Nazi Germany practized (in secret, obviously, as they were perfectly aware what would happen if they tried publicly).

As per euthanasia in the Netherlands: (you folks really shouldn't buy into Tea Party nut propaganda)

Euthanasia in the Netherlands is regulated by the "Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide (Review Procedures) Act" from 2002. It states that euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide are not punishable if the attending physician acts in accordance with criteria of due care.[1] These criteria concern the patient's request, the patient's suffering (unbearable and hopeless), the information provided to the patient, the presence of reasonable alternatives, consultation of another physician and the applied method of ending life.[1] To demonstrate their compliance, the Act requires physicians to report euthanasia to a review committee.[1]

I could be wrong but I seem to be missing anything regarding 'unrequested'.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Here's a bit from that well-known tea party front group The Hastings Institute

....In the Netherlands, physician-assisted death and voluntary active euthanasia have been openly permitted for over 30 years (though they were formally legalized only recently) and have been the subject of three major studies. These studies showed very stable rates of physician-assisted death (0.2–0.3%) and voluntary active euthanasia (1.8–2.5%), and increasing public reporting over time (now over 50%).

The most controversial finding has been a small but persistent number of “life-terminating acts without explicit requests” (0.7–0.8%). There has been much discussion about these cases. Advocates maintain that the patients were terminally ill, that they were experiencing intractable suffering, that they had lost capacity for decision-making, and that their physicians had responded appropriately to end their suffering. Critics suggest that these cases are clear evidence of a practice out of control. In the Netherlands, there is a cultural bias that the responsibility to respond to an individual patient’s suffering outweighs the obligation to obey the law in these difficult cases (“force majeure”).

Slippery @#%&*ing slope, if you ask me.

 

[Cutlass]

Here's a bit from that well-known tea party front group The Hastings Institute



Slippery @#%&*ing slope, if you ask me.

But what's the proof that it is actually happening?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

I cited the article. What proof? As much as anyone's "proof."

 

[Tahuti]

How to prevent being hated by Communists 101?

1. Call yourself a Socialist
2. Avoid using Swastikas
3. Use red stars

That's it! You can now engage in exploitation, human rights abuses and prevent a Communist revolution from happening, since you are one too! Congratulations!

 

[Lone Wolf]

Qaddafi was admired by some leftists without using any red stars. Your advise is invalid.

 

[Gary Childress]

It is systemic and legal in Holland to murder.... period.

Here's a bit from that well-known tea party front group The Hastings Institute



Slippery @#%&*ing slope, if you ask me.

With all due respect, I wouldn't think that physician assisted suicide amounts to "legalized murder". If someone is terminally ill and in pain I would think it can be argued to be somewhat compassionate to try to end their suffering even if they have not given explicit permission to do so. My parents have always told me that if they ever end up in the hospital and on a life support system, just pull the plug. They don't want to live like that. I'm not sure if I have the will to follow their instructions or not. I love my parents so much.

Leaving someone on life support for years on end also puts a drain on medical resources that might be better used to help those with better lives. I think things can get out of control either way. If you legalize physician assisted suicide there will be scandals and if you make it illegal there will be scandals. Either way I think there will be scandals. It's like part of human nature or something.

However, I think Holland's intent is to help its citizens live and yes...die better. I'm guessing that there were some sort of democratic processes in motion when physician assisted suicide was legalized in Holland. Can the same be said of the DPRK? How much of their rules and regulations are created through democratic processes versus their leader simply saying, "from now on we're going to do things like this..."

Granted there can probably be such a thing as a benevolent dictatorship but I'm a little unsure that DPRK has one. They're a severely underdeveloped country compared to South Korea and many other parts of the world. They have self determination (we don't pull strings to tell their government what to do because they don't listen to us, period). But their leader hasn't done much to improve the people's lives from what I understand. Because their leadership isn't doing much to improve their country they try to offer their people scapegoats or try to declare states of pending war etc. to take people's minds off the fact that their leadership isn't doing much to help them.

IMO the DPRK is a horrible country and not the least bit comparable to Holland or any other developed country. My understanding is that their infrastructure rivals that of many poorly developed African nations. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just picking my ideas up from propaganda out there but until I'm shown otherwise I don't think the leadership of the DPRK is any good at all.

 

[Tahuti]

Qaddafi was admired by some leftists without using any red stars. Your advise is invalid.

It is about avoiding being hated, you might luck out without them.

Although Hitler was supported by Stalinists in Britain and the USA when Molotov-Ribbentrop was still in force.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

How to prevent being hated by Communists 101?

1. Call yourself a Socialist
2. Avoid using Swastikas
3. Use red stars

That's it! You can now engage in exploitation, human rights abuses and prevent a Communist revolution from happening, since you are one too! Congratulations!

That is not a mature position....

No one here is trying to avoid being hated by Communists.

But, then, I don't "hate" at all. It is not worth the emotional investment.

I judge things on the merits of my own Spinozan Grid, as does anyone, whether they are conscious of it or not.

I also think that passing judgement based on a singularly hostile bias is also not worth the emotional investment.

If you will excuse me, I have to cook dinner for a Chinese national guest.

Not making that up...

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

How to prevent being hated by Communists 101?

1. Call yourself a Socialist
2. Avoid using Swastikas
3. Use red stars

That's it! You can now engage in exploitation, human rights abuses and prevent a Communist revolution from happening, since you are one too! Congratulations!

Don't mistake defense for praise, or lack of praise for lack of endorsement, for that matter.

 

[Frozen In Ice]

So that defense of North Korea is sincere? People are literally defending North Korea in this thread? That sort of thing just confirms every stereotype about communists.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

So that defense of North Korea is sincere? People are literally defending North Korea in this thread? That sort of thing just confirms every stereotype about communists.

Just some perspective is all... the US killed 20% of the DPRK citizens in an undeclared war 1950 - 1953. If someone can tell me truthfully that the DPRK kills either 20% of its own population, or 2 million Americans, I will reconsider my position.

 

[Agent327]

Just some perspective is all... the US killed 20% of the DPRK citizens in an undeclared war 1950 - 1953. If someone can tell me truthfully that the DPRK kills either 20% of its own population, or 2 million Americans, I will reconsider my position.

I doubt it. But ofcourse the Korean War was started by North Korea. That might have been before your time, but I was pretty sure that's common knowledge. Seeing as the US were official ally and in charge of North Korea's defense, they retaliated - it was the Cold War after all, now threatening to get hot. Surprisingly, in the event North Korean forces still managed to practically overrun all of the South.

Anyway, you seem to be claiming that North Korean casualties in a war initiated by that country are to blame on the US. Seriously, a much better point could have been made with another country - also in East Asia.

So yes, such "defense" merely confirms certain stereotypes.