The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion
- Thread starter otago
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That little omission of moral obligation is precisely where we differ, and it's an important omission.
Difficult and dangerous? No, it wasn't a deliberate hedge. We have that as a moral onus as well.
Wouldn't "limiting our carbon production" fall under that? The currently unborn are a major beneficiary of any prudence we show today. I'd also mentioned "Take care of the sperm, to avoid mutations. Take folic acid, to prevent developmental issues. Reduce stress & obesity on the (future) father, to avoid deleterious epigenetic effects."
We've a massive onus towards the unborn. We should factor in their future happiness & health & well-being pro-actively.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
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Oh indeed. I'm a fairly rabid conservationist even if animal rights/environmentalists sometimes disown me. Agreed with all of the above. I suppose I was more looking for the red-meat of "they shouldn't be aborted" but alas, I don't think many people like my unhappily precarious perch on this issue.
No, I think the moral onus is actually in favor of the sentient organism. An abortion causes no harm or loss of well-being to a sentient organism, because it doesn't exist yet. In fact, if the circumstances are knowingly subpar, I don't know why we should encourage the forced growth of non-sentient organism into a subpar sentience.
Yes, if the sentient organism will come into existence, then our obligation spreads forwards and backwards in time from its putative beginning.
Yes, if the sentient organism will come into existence, then our obligation spreads forwards and backwards in time from its putative beginning.
Core Imposter
Felon
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God bless you Ghost Writer.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
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Forced?
Aside from that word, and if removed, your moral obligation calculus retains any sort of solution short of an ogre's choice I must wholeheartedly voice my disappointed and intractable opposition.
Subpar sentience. Ugly words in application are those.
"Subpar sentience" is entirely clinically meant: it's precise wording, without any evocative intent.
We can agree that intentionally forcing a fetus to have a subpar existence (infecting it with HIV or harmful retroviruses, intentionally starving or poisoning the mother) is wrong, right? There's a moral balance where deliberately making it bad is thematically related to deliberately making it good.
edit: I'm unfamiliar with the term "ogre's choice"
We can agree that intentionally forcing a fetus to have a subpar existence (infecting it with HIV or harmful retroviruses, intentionally starving or poisoning the mother) is wrong, right? There's a moral balance where deliberately making it bad is thematically related to deliberately making it good.
edit: I'm unfamiliar with the term "ogre's choice"
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
...For what?
I'm not being facetious, I'm honestly not sure what about his participation in this thread could be considered particularly bless-worthy.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
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When applied to HIV or harmful viral infections subpar sentience has a meaning that may line up with how you are intending. When applied to a choice regarding the base worth of existence or termination that meaning is very different.
Ogre's choice just means both available options are monstrous.
Zack
99% hot gas
He was clearly calling for God to bless Dommy with enlightenment....For what?
The quiver of consternation you felt when reading my posts are shared by Catholic scholars whenever someone uses prophylactic contraception because "it wouldn't be a good life (I'm not ready yet)". Interestingly, their reasoning is the same as your reasoning, they just carry the logic of their intuition further; i.e., they formulated their intuitive concern, and then realised that the same reasoning made sperm sacred as well.
GhostWriter16
Deity
I've talked to a couple of orthodox Caholics on here, while the Catholic position is that contraception is wrong, they do not consider masturbation to be murder, as some liberals will mockingly say.
The early church did hold that view, but new science has rendered it obsolete. The reason they held it was because they thought sperm contained ALL the DNA and the woman was merely an incubator. That logic doesn't work anymore, at all.
Thus Catholics seem to have by and large rejected it, but they still believe the early church fathers were right that contraception is always a moral evil. I really don't know why. If an action is immoral based on X, and X becomes false, why is that action still immoral?
GhostWriter16
Deity
...For what?
I honestly don't know either. I'll admit to hardly being the smartest person in this thread, regardless of how right I may think I am. I'm assuming he's saying it because he thinks I'm right regardless of the fact that I got "Beat" in the thread.
If it were someone else, maybe, but MisterCooper I think agrees with me on this topic.@Truronian- I'm not going to argue with you anymore because you clearly are the more knowledgable person in the thread and yet, honestly, I still think I'm right on abortion, regardless of that fact. That may seem a little "Cheap" but since you are someone who clearly knows his subject matter, and I'm not, doesn't necessarily make me wrong on the question being asked. So, after this post, I will concede that I lost the debate. I may return to the subject someday, but I really need a break, and you pretty clearly beat me.
While not conceding my opinion, I will concede one thing, the death penalty is a bad decision to use as punishment for women who have abortions. I will admit, nobody "Passed down" that particular position to me, but I actually came to it due to two things, firstly, I really did (And do) believe the pro-life message that abortion is murder, but second, I grew especially frustrated with the hypocricy involved with wanting to ban abortion but being unwilling to enforce any legal penalty against those that have abortions. Thirdly, since my general position is that murder should be a capital offense. Based on my positions it was a logical conclusion, but I will explain why I've changed my mind.
Firstly, early term abortions are very controversial. I'll admit, I think its clear, to me, that it is murder, and should be prosecuted as such, but firstly, its extremely difficult to prove and second, even if it is proven, it will make our country look exceptionally bad. Executing someone for something only half the country, if even, really thinks is murder. Now, I will say, I still think it should be treated extremely seriously.
My ideal would thus be a life sentence for getting an abortion, although I'd settle for a very lengthy sentence or a life sentence with the possiblity of parole. Using the death penalty for it would be more cruel than I think that we should be for what has become an extremely difficult situation. Plus, using imprisonment rather death would prevent the "You're murdering to stop murder" rhetoric, even though I think its untrue, its still a very cruel consequence, and for something that is biologically complex.
So I would say I've changed my position. The ideal sentence is life imprisonment, not death.
I don't expect that to satisfy all of you. I didn't come to the conclusion because I wanted to satisfy people. I've thought it over and using the death penalty for abortion, even if done gradually, would really look like genocide to a lot of the world and its also very cruel for something that, sadly, has become a difficult position partially because of our culture. Its not because I want to avoid being called a "Bigot." I'll still get that one. Its a decision I've made based on practicality. I also don't expect even a life sentence to even be attained at all for abortion, but that is the sentence I would argue for.
I also would accept certain mitigating factors that could reduce the sentence somewhat less than life. If a parent pressures her into an illegal abortion, they should get a life sentence and she should get, at most, a lesser sentence, as she isn't totally guilty in that case. If someone else pressures her, the blame is somewhat shared and the sentence should be less than life. If its in a case of rape, there's an additional added pressure and while she's still guilty, its a mitigating factor. I'm not going to write exactly what the penalty should be for each situation, but I am saying that life should be the "Base" sentence which could be reduced under certain circumstances at the court's discretion.
I will say a few exceptions to my "No death penalty for abortion" statement. Late term abortion is almost undisputably wrong after five or six months, so in the rare cases where a "Late term" abortion is entered into without risk to the mother's life, the death penalty should be applied. At that point, debate of the death penalty aside, most people would agree that a murder was committed. I'm willing to tell the very, very small minority that disagrees to deal with it by then.
Secondly, illegal abortion providers should, in fact, get the death penalty if caught after abortion is outlawed. They can't really plea "It was a difficult decision/outside pressure/exc." after an abortion is performed like a woman can. They should be held fully, 100% possible.
I have to go now, but my new position will be reflected in any further discussions on the subject. I can discuss more at a later time if needed, but for now, I'm done
useless
Social Justice Rogue
This is just as utterly pathetic and disgusting, as you're still wanting to punish women for exercising bodily autonomy.
In short, your views on it are still terrible and punish women in general (as well as being abhorrent and bigoted)
Leonel
Breakfast Connoisseur
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Now we just have to figure out if the opposite of "God bless you Ghost Writer" is "God damn you Ghost Writer" or "God bless you Useless"... 
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