[RD] The origin of post-truth politics.

[Traitorfish]

I would disagree with that. With Trump and other disreputable far right candidates in Europe, we can see them making demonstrably, factually wrong statements (and these are easy to prove and easy to understand facts), yet their supporters either don't care about the ignorance/lie or don't see a politician lying as an issue.
When we extend lying to include "stupid opinions with no basis in reality" - like Putin's apparent belief that the homosexuals are trying to convert children, or that one Australian politician who believes the UN is using homosexuality and climate change to create a one world government - and people are still voting for them or not trying to distance themselves, I find it worrying.

Is that actually a novelty, though? Thatcher and Raegean were both reactionary populists who campaigned on a platforms stitched out of racism, paranoia, and economic magical-thinking, but they didn't look like populists, they still spoke like authoritative and professional politicians, so we attribute to them a deliberateness and a rationality, even a malevolent one, which isn't really evident from their policy history. Trump, Farage, et al. are different not because they're saying or doing things that are any more absurd, but because their absurdity isn't disguised behind conventional technocratic forms, because they've abandoned traditional standards of respectability.

If conventional right-wing politicians are more careful to avoid outright lies, it's not because their policies are any more humane or rational, it's only because they're more conscious of a middle-ground who view lies of commission as politically damaging. Trump et al. have found constituencies that don't care about that, as long as it sounds nice, and through a little skill and a lot of dumb, idiot, not-saying-they-have-syphilis-but-they-all-definitely-have-syphilis-literally-all-of-them-pretty-advanced-too-also-Farage-has-crabs luck, translated that into political power, or at least the illusion of political power.

 

[Ajidica]

Is that actually a novelty, though? Thatcher and Raegean were both reactionary populists who campaigned on a platforms stitched out of racism, paranoia, and economic magical-thinking, but they didn't look like populists, they still spoke like authoritative and professional politicians, so we attribute to them a deliberateness and a rationality, even a malevolent one, which isn't really evident from their policy history. Trump, Farage, et al. are different not because they're saying or doing things that are any more absurd, but because their absurdity isn't disguised behind conventional technocratic forms, because they've abandoned traditional standards of respectability.

Isn't that sort of what I was saying? That Trump and Farage have ditched the norms that characterized even politicians like Thatcher - a woman who hated Labour so much she took milk away from children to prove it- indicates there is something special about them that wasn't present with earlier high profile politicians.

If conventional right-wing politicians are more careful to avoid outright lies, it's not because their policies are any more humane or rational, it's only because they're more conscious of a middle-ground who view lies of commission as politically damaging. Trump et al. have found constituencies that don't care about that, as long as it sounds nice, and through a little skill and a lot of dumb, idiot, not-saying-they-have-syphilis-but-they-all-definitely-have-syphilis-literally-all-of-them-pretty-advanced-too-also-Farage-has-crabs luck, translated that into political power, or at least the illusion of political power.

So either that constituency has always existed and fearmongerers like Maggie Thatcher or Enoch Powell were too dim to notice them; or those constituencies have grown enough to be worth courting at the expense of the voters who view such blatant lying as something best avoided.

 

[FriendlyFire]

It is much more then just one spectrum of politicians. It involves special interests and media. Good example is the Russian post truth brainwashing:

Because for several generations the Russian, Communist were the bad guys you know we had a Cold War
Of course for our Russian Friends the Americans, Democracy were the bad guys and the brainwashing was even deeper

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Because for several generations the Russian, Communist were the bad guys you know we had a Cold War
Of course for our Russian Friends the Americans, Democracy were the bad guys and the brainwashing was even deeper

What you describe isnt the cause but a dubious excuse for acting like that.

 

[Gori the Grey]

As recently as a decade ago, one could say "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

That one had to say it shows that people had started to try to have their own facts.

That one could say it, and be found a reasonable fellow, shows that we weren't post-truth yet.

For me, post-truth starts with left and right news channels, Fox and MSNBC.* Their whole premise is that there are no facts that are uncontaminated by spin. It's a small step from that to, well then there are no facts, I guess, only opinions. That's sealed once everyone can set social media settings to get the news he wants.

Says the guy who spends most nights ping-ponging between them.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

As recently as a decade ago, one could say "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

That one had to say it shows that people had started to try to have their own facts.

That one could say it, and be found a reasonable fellow, shows that we weren't post-truth yet.

For me, post-truth starts with left and right news channels, Fox and MSNBC.* Their whole premise is that there are no facts that are uncontaminated by spin. It's a small step from that to, well then there are no facts, I guess, only opinions. That's sealed once you get your news from social media.

Says the guy who spends most nights ping-ponging between them.

It doesnt make sense to say that there are no facts. What I understand is that there may be special interest which agenda doesnt correlate with that of the majority of society and the facts are being twisted or explained one-sidedly to serve covert purposes.

 

[Gori the Grey]

It doesn't make sense, you're right. That's what happens when you live in a post-truth world. Things stop making sense.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Who needs truth when you have Good-Facts.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

It doesn't make sense, you're right. That's what happens when you live in a post-truth world. Things stop making sense.

But why? All of sudden? Out of nothing? Just for the heck of it? No. It still makes sense only its not apparent.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Who needs truth when you have Good-Facts.

Next step is: who needs good-facts when you can control all... and that will be the post post truth era.

 

[Gori the Grey]

But why? All of sudden? Out of nothing? Just for the heck of it? No. It still makes sense only its not apparent.

My narrative has it at least ten years in development, and depending on specific developments in media and technology. So, no, the very opposite of all of a sudden and out of nothing.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Next step is: who needs good-facts when you can control all... and that will be the post post truth era.

Before long, Big Brother will be watching you.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Before long, Big Brother will be watching you.

Fortunately or not I am not very interesting to watch.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

My narrative has it at least ten years in development, and depending on specific developments in media and technology. So, no, the very opposite of all of a sudden and out of nothing.

Media and technology are just a tools. Things dont happen without reasons.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Yeah, no, technology makes altogether new things possible.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Yeah, no, technology makes altogether new things possible.

It does but not on its own. Its the will behind which uses them for its (post-truth)purposes. That will doesnt act without reason.

 

[FriendlyFire]

What you describe isnt the cause but a dubious excuse for acting like that.

That for generations the Russians were the bad guys and is now deep in the American culture and thinking ?
Dont worry Russia is 10x worse, even protest against corruption is considered unpatriotic those organizing the Protests are considered American Spy's, foreign agents.
Anti Americanism is also being whipped up, I guess its a siege mentality of the Russians been like this for a long time. Everything bad is Americans fault its convenient to play this up

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

That for generations the Russians were the bad guys and is now deep in the American culture and thinking ?

No. If you want to defeat your enemy you have to be smart/rational. Whats happenig with the Russian narrative now its non of that unless you admit there may be a secondary purpose which this apparent irrationality serves. The old fears are simply being used for some agenda and its not primarily to defend from any Russian threat.
You can see example here at 2'13:

First before the election CNN claims that the elections cant be hacked only to push strongly the Russian hacking narrative in the days after the elections. Itsnt about fear of Russia but about an agenda for which the fear of Russia is being used.

 

[FriendlyFire]

First before the election CNN claims that the elections cant be hacked only to push strongly the Russian hacking narrative in the days after the elections. Itsnt about fear of Russia but about an agenda for which the fear of Russia is being used.

Firstly I thinks it Hilarious that Idiot Youtuber is defending Sean Spicer
Secondly 24hr new networks all went and copied Foxnews are have become cancerous biased money making machines, which have turned news into opniontainment

You just noticed that Trump became President based on what is in effect attacking Mexicans, Muslims, Blacks and Gays while making insane empty promises.
Why because the media in America is Broken

 

[Agent327]

Everybody lies. Mr Trump just made a career of it.