The Star Wars megathread

[bestrfcplayer]

Revenge of the Sith and The Empire Strikes Back are the only two Star Wars movies that I can watch more than once.

 

[Cutlass]

So, if I can expand.

I've said a few times that Timothy Zahn turned the franchise. I might be wrong, but the whole Star Wars EU seems really stifled until Zahn's books. And then, there was an explosion of material and an increase in SW's popularity. Does it seem that way to others?

Yes, I would agree that the Zahn series really gave the books a true post Return of the Jedi focus and future. Before that, it was just a few random stories in a completed overall story arc. After it was an ongoing story arc.

 

[Darth Caesar]

I'm amazed there isn't one already!

So, Luke going into the cave in TESB, that was a bit weird, eh? what do you think of that scene? How do you interpret it?

I thought revenge of the Sith was brilliant, but many don't rate it at all. Thoughts, opinions?

At the start of a New Hope, Vader appears to be subservient to Moff Tarkin, was he technically lower in rank?

I think it symbolized his own capacity of evil through the fact that he was his arch enemy and after he decapitated him he saw his face in the helmet which meant it was a reflection of himself.

I agree ROTS is second for me next to TESB.

And I believe that being a Grand Moff he did have the authority to give orders to Vader.

 

[Holycannoli]

The original Star Wars, IV, is my favorite. It was the most "pure" story, when the princess really was just a princess, Vader was the enemy who killed Luke's father, it ended with an awesome space battle etc.

ROTJ had slave Leia so no matter what else it still ranks very high. The emperor was also pretty kickass for a kid my age.

EDIT: And I tried reading Zahn's books. I got up to a part where it mentioned creatures who nullified the Force, and I stopped reading. Talk about a cheap, unimaginative way to solve the problem of the antagonist not being able to use the Force!

 

[sophie]

A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back are the only ones worth watching repeatedly. Return of the Jedi is worth watching if only for Leia in slave garb. The new trilogy is not worth watching ever. Even the third movie is rather terrible.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Tarkin outranked Vader. Even if he didn't officially, Tarkin had just as much of the Emperors favor as Grand Moff and certainly had more influence at court. Vader had no formal position inside the normal Imperial State. He held a peerage only, which is an obvious sigh he was a holder of the Emperor's favor, and that's where his power at that time came from. As a New Hope makes clear, Vader's dark side position was not known to most Imperials, including very high ranking ones as represented in the conference room in ANH.

After Yavin Vader was appointed Supreme Commander of the Imperial Armed forces, giving him a a very high position within the state but still below the the great officers of state.

It gets more confusing when you talk about the Hierarchy, which existed in parallel but in secret alongside the normal Imperial state. You could be very low ranking in normal rank, but high ranked in the Hierarchy, but your Hierarchy rank takes precedence. But then again not everyone knows your Hierarchy rank, but as far as the literature goes most people recognize their lower status all the same so there must be some way to demonstrate your higher rank.

It should be remembered that Vader was not the only powerful member of Palpantine's clientele before and after the declaration of New Order. Anakin was an important entity in his own right during the Clone Wars, but he was still just a general amongst millions of generals and subordinate to any number of civilian officials within the Republic Authority. His status after becoming Vader has a lot to do with whether or not the inner circles of the Imperial State knew of his former identy. It they did that brings a lot of gravitas, if not Vader is just some random enforcer dude the Emerperor uses for errands and a newbie without any long standing clientele of his own. This also has a lot to do with whether you look at Star Wars as a shallow universe with mustache twirling villains, or a deeper universe with actual working motivations and relationships.

Additionally, the Imperial military engaged in the practice of secondment or thirdment. A low ranking military officer can be seconded to the state services and serve as a governor of a level far above his equivalent military rank. In thirdment, a low ranking military officer could serve as a head of state of a dominion while still maintaining his low military rank at the same time.

The below link explains the workings of the Empire. It is a fan fic, but it is footnoted and he tells you exactly what is supported by the EU, and what is his conjecture of invention. I highly recommend it.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=122169

Its also worth remembering that for nearly his entirety as a Sith Lord, Vader had been plotting against the Emperor. Palpatine in all likelihood knew about it, but couldn't really afford to get rid of Vader, and was probably at least a little scared of his potential. During the A New Hope time period, he held particular disfavor with the Emperor, especially after the whole Galen Marek snafu. Tarkin, on the other hand, was an instrument of the Empire as a whole, not merely the Emperor, and his removal would have been, well, very political. The whole purpose of the Death Star was to maintain loyalty through fear, and if Tarkin were removed it would have been a severe blow to the integrity of the Imperial Navy, and who knows how many officers might have left - or worse, joined the Rebellion! So Vader had to tolerate Tarkin, both to maintain the illusion of meritocracy within the starfleet as well as to win back favor points with Palpatine.

 

[Dumanios]

Phantom Menace: Was too childish and it had Jar Jar.

Attack of the Clones: The Annie/Padme romance sideplot had too much screen-time and Obi-wan didn't have enough screen time

Revenge of the Sith: Bearable to watch, the Annie/Padme romance could use less screen-time and Vader's appearance at the end could have been far less narmy(or omitted), but still good.

New Hope: No big problems. Han shot first, by the way.

Empire strikes Back: Best movie of the 6.

Return of the Jedi: Should've been Kashyyyk and Wookies instead of Endor and Ewoks.

Spoiler :

Empire Strikes Back > KOTOR > A New Hope > Revenge of the Sith/Return of the Jedi(tie) > Attack of the Clones > Phantom Menace

 

[NovaKart]

Jar Jar is one of the worst characters ever to exist in the history of cinema. He single handedly brought the Phantom Menace down from what could have been a decent (certainly not great) movie into a travesty.

http://www.mindspring.com/~ernestm/jarjar/jarjarcritics.html

I came across this page of anti-jar jar comments. On looking at his picture I noticed a bit of a resemblance with Ronaldinho.

George Lucas said that he included him solely to appeal to little children and said that the negative criticism largely comes from the fact that fans don't want to admit that the series is for children. I would respond that there's a way to make a children's movie without it being lame and cutesy.

 

[kulade]

I guess I'm going to have to agree with the consensus here that New Hope and Empire are the two that made the series worth watching. Jedi was alright, but you could really see more pervasive nonsense in the plot (Leia Luk's sister, Ewoks, etc.) it's far sadder now because I realize that it was boding of... <shiver> things to come.

If you ask me, Lucas should put out a "Special Edition" of the prequels, except for instead of sprucing up the graphics, he should try to meld that abominable plot into something coherent and the characters into people more rational and likable.

All you ever needed to know about why the prequals are possibly the worst movies ever made (along with all the TNG movies).

http://www.redlettermedia.com/

Plinkett's review of Episode III is supposed to be out within the next week.

If anyone hasn't seen his reviews of the Star Wars prequels, please drop everything right now and watch them! Grade A lulz!

 

[Patroklos]

Its also worth remembering that for nearly his entirety as a Sith Lord, Vader had been plotting against the Emperor. Palpatine in all likelihood knew about it, but couldn't really afford to get rid of Vader, and was probably at least a little scared of his potential. During the A New Hope time period, he held particular disfavor with the Emperor, especially after the whole Galen Marek snafu.

Yeah, I think they have gone a bit overboard with this as of late with the Force Unleashed thing but one of the great contradictions of the Empire is that while in general it centralized power relative to the lose structure of the Republic internally as a matter of practice the Empire was divided into clienteles dominated by many equally powerful individuals constantly competing with each other and all potential rivals of Palpantine for the thrown.

Its know that the Emperor intentionally cultivated this as it allowed him to benefit from the competition between them to please him while at the same time acting as a check to themselves so that none became powerful enough to replace him. That's why the Emperor himself was so important as he was the only entity that was able to check these extreme personalities with all their individual power and unite them into a single force, which is also why without the Emperor the Empire fractured immediately. A clear successor might have prevented a fracture, but then having a clear successor would have destabilized the power balancing above.

Tarkin, on the other hand, was an instrument of the Empire as a whole, not merely the Emperor, and his removal would have been, well, very political.

I wouldn't say he was a Empire wide instrument. He was after all a political appointee, one appointed by the Emperor himself. He had no connection to nor was he subordinate to any facet of the Imperial State or Senate. He reported to the Privy Council (that's not a canon name, but it refers to the collection of Imperial advisers) but as a full privy counselor himself that meant in reality the Ruling Council or Emperor himself was Tarkin's only superiors.

It should be noted that the Tarkin was never in the military, and was a civilian appointee in the Empire.

The whole purpose of the Death Star was to maintain loyalty through fear, and if Tarkin were removed it would have been a severe blow to the integrity of the Imperial Navy, and who knows how many officers might have left - or worse, joined the Rebellion!

The Navy could have cared less about Tarkin, as he was not one of them. In fact the Navy HATED the Death Star as it served as a rival to their status as the hammer of the Empire and was controlled by a civilian, not the Supreme Commander. In a very real way the Death Star was in part designed to check the Imperial Armed Forces itself in the same delicate power balance I described above. Additionally it represented a huge diversion of resources from all other parts of the armed forces, and given the rivalry for funding between the branches or real world military branches animosity it quite understandable.

In fact, as the Death Star neared completion there was a real fear that Tarkin might use it to make an attempt on the thrown, which led to the creation and eventual straightening of the strategic reserve held in the Deep Core which included half the firepower of the Empire as a counterbalance to the Death Star itself.

So Vader had to tolerate Tarkin, both to maintain the illusion of meritocracy within the starfleet as well as to win back favor points with Palpatine.

It had nothing to do with meritocracy in the starfleet as Tarkin was a civilian, and as I stated before Vader was not the end all be all of the Emperor's servants. Even matched up against regular military officers Vader was not superior to Screed as Supreme Commander or any of the Grand Admirals, all of which enjoyed a personal appointment by the Emperor himself outside the normal military hierarchy.

In fact, while Tarkin was a civilian many Moffs and Grand Moffs were indeed military officers as well and they would also have been uneasy equals with Vader as well. This is the New Hope Vader we are talking about, in TESB Vader was the Supreme Commander and took over Tarkin's mandate for stamping out the rebellion.

 

[RedRalph]

Was Vader the de facto second in command once Tarkin died?

 

[GenMarshall]

The original trilogy and RotS are the only ones worth watching over and over.

Though I am disappoint that George Lucas did not killed off the annoying clown (Jar Jar). At least in RotS he only had one second shot before he was shooed out.

 

[LAnkou]

why are people talking about 6 movies? I tought Star Wars was only a trilogy...

joke apart, phantom menace and attack of the clone are good to garbage
Revenge of the Sith is decent...

A new hope has no flaw, but no bravery pieces too...(and han shot first)
Empire Strikes back: Hoth, Yoda, imperial march, frozen han ("i love you / I know"), "Luke i am your father" is fantastic/great, i've more problem with the cave and cloud city
Return of the Jedi: Ok for the "sister leia", but i like the ewok thing (god C3PO rules the world) and people seems to forget: Jabba, speeder pursuit, Lando's flight in the death star, "It's a trap"...

What bothers me the most with the reedit is the ending music of RoTJ. I love the little ewok music and it was more than sufficient, instead of that pompous symphonic music with all others cities that just makes think that, well, for a galaxy empire, finally, we have seen few places, that were mostly empty:
Tatooine, Hoth, Endor, Dagobah, cloud city, Yavin and interior of ships...
I hesitate between ESB and RoTJ as my favorite...

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

[snip]

It never occurred to me that Tarkin might be a civilian appointee.

 

[MobBoss]

It should be noted that the Tarkin was never in the military, and was a civilian appointee in the Empire.

I dont think thats correct. The Moffs were military governers, not civilians ones. And fwiw, wookiepedia says that Grand Moff Tarkin came from a family with a long military history and initially served in the Republic Outland Security Forces with the rank of Commander.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wilhuff_Tarkin

As a young man, Tarkin enrolled in a military academy, in accordance with the Tarkin family's strong military tradition.[1][2] Driven to live up to every aspect of the family legacy, young Wilhuff Tarkin cultivated expertise in multiple fields, establishing a reputation as an intellectual prodigy with a well-rounded mind. He displayed great aptitude as a tactician in the course of his schooling, drafted starship designs that inspired the design of interdictor craft, broke new ground in xenobiology theory, and demonstrated great talent as a poet and philosopher.[6] A keen analyst of the political situation, Tarkin perceived the Galactic Republic to be a decaying institution, and envisioned a new future for the galaxy.[9] His vision was a militant one, authoritarian and Humanocentric, and he possessed a driving ambition to rise to the ranks of power, where he could effect change.[2][10]

After graduation, he and his brother Gideon joined the Republic Outland Regions Security Force, a military policing force that kept the Outland Regions, a Rim area that included Eriadu, safe from piracy.[1][10] Tarkin was a fast riser who achieved the rank of commander, and during the course of his service visited Coruscant, capital of the galaxy, several times.[1] There, around 39 BBY, he befriended Raith Sienar, heir to the Republic Sienar Systems shipbuilding concern and an accomplished engineer who was near Tarkin's age.[1][

 

[Patroklos]

Was Vader the de facto second in command once Tarkin died?

No, there were other members of the ruling council far more powerful and actually in control of the Imperial state itself (at the will of the Emperor) such ans Sate Pestage Ars Dangor. As far as I know Darth Vader was not even a member of the Ruling Council. He was always more of a personal agent.

After Tarkin died he took on the mantel of Supreme Commander and was invested with Tarkin's uncompleted mandate to stamp out the Rebellion and was a vastly more powerful figure, but still just one or many such figures.

People tend to assume because Darth Vader was the Emperor's dark side apprentice this automatically translates into power in other spheres. The Empire was not some dark side dominated force worshiping state. As ANH makes clear the force had become an almost unbelieved archaic thing that most people didn't even know about, and those who did dismissed. If Darth Vader was using his status as a dark side apprentice to garner power in the normative state then this would not have been the case. In fact, Darth Vader was active with the Inquisitors to actively suppress all force and force type power users as a matter or public state policy.

Now, like I mentioned the EU has established all sorts of prerogative state apparatuses the most powerful of which as the Hierarchy which exercised great power behind the scenes and Vader was clearly a senior member of this, but thats very poorly fleshed out.

 

[Ajidica]

What canon reasons forced Lucas to kill of the Christopher Lee character and replace him with that 4 armed robot person in Revenge of the Sith? Christopher Lee did such an awsome job in LotR it stands to reasons he would make an awsome Sith Saruman.

Or was the choice simply Lucas looking for an excuse to make more toys?

 

[Darth Caesar]

He was really awesome and my 3rd favorite Sith Lord, I would of loved to see more of him. But alas his death was a pretty important step on Anakin's fall to the Dark Side.

 

[Patroklos]

I dont think thats correct. The Moffs were military governers, not civilians ones.

Moffs were entitled to wear uniforms of the armed forces, but were NOT members of the military as a matter of couse (many were members of the military, but it was not a prerequisite). Think of European nobles who have military rank for ceremonial purposes, but are not actual members of the military.

And no, there is nothing that say Moffs are military governors. It is true that they had control of all organic military forces normally attached to whatever territorial unit is under their control. But as the govenor they have control of all assets of the Imperial state, not just the military.

Also, not all Moffs were governors and the vast majority of governors were not Moffs. Moff is simple a title to officially designate someone as a holder of the Emperor's confidence, they included those who were leaders in their fields such as diplomats, technocrates and military leaders or those who otherwise powerful in influential in their own right to warrant such recognition and authority.

And fwiw, wookiepedia says that Grand Moff Tarkin came from a family with a long military history and initially served in the Republic Outland Security Forces with the rank of Commander.

Being from a military family does not mean you are in the military. My sisters and I are from a family with a long military tradition, I am the only one in the service.

The Republic Outland Security Forces were a law enforcement organization. And whatever they were they were not the Imperial military nor was he a member or either while a Grand Moff.

Some info on the Tarkin:

It seems inevitable that any discussion of the Grand Moffs must become a discussion of the best-known among them, Wilhuff Grand Moff Tarkin, who was early on recognized as one of the ablest of Palpatine's "Whiz Kid" technocrats. Scion of the patrician Tarkins of Eriadu, he had served as Lieutenant Governor of Seswenna Sector before the Clone War, only to return afterward as Governor of Seswenna Sector and then as the newly-appointed Governor and Supreme Commander in and over Seswenna Sector. In addition to his duties as both a sector and regional governor, he was a leading figure at court, a privy counsellor, and one of the chief architects of the Palpatinist-Tarkinist ideology (as implied by the very name); over the course of his career, he would add Minister of the Interior of the Galactic Empire, Imperial Senator for the Social Republic of Eriadu and the Seswenna Sector, and President of the Social Republic of Eriadu to his list of offices, as well as his place as Honorary Vice Chairman of the Select Committee of COMPNOR, the New Order Galactic Committee's First Assistant General Secretary for the Galaxy, and General Secretary of the New Order Party of the Outer Rim. He was, as one holojournalist once put it, "kind of a big deal." As acting Governor General of the Outer Rim Territories Region of the Galaxy, Tarkin was the foremost executor of the postwar reconstruction policies of the Imperial State, sidestepping traditional legal restrictions by appealing to his mandate to stamp out Separatist holdouts, to institute the rule of (Imperial) law, and to enforce the Galactic Emperor's Peace. As these wartime powers began to expire by virtue of their sunset clauses, and with no Senatorial Amendments in sight to extend them, the "Pocket Grand Moff" &#8212; so called because of his status as an acting governor general, which left him not quite a Grand Moff but something rather more than a "mere" Moff &#8212; submitted a privy memorandum to The Throne suggesting (among other things) that these wartime powers to cross Sector boundaries be packaged together into a new territorial unit, which he called a Priority Sector or Oversector (the two terms, Basic and Galactic Standard, appear interchangeably in Tarkin's scandocs; the use of the one over the other has been source of no small amount of controversy among historians). Although the actual correspondence was handled by Ars Dangor, President of the Ruling Council, there is no question among reputable historians that Palpatine himself was intimately involved in the proposal. Tarkin's memorandum was made the basis for an official policy statement of the Imperial State, which Dangor named the Tarkin Doctrine. As for Tarkin himself, the rewards were considerable: He was appointed both His Imperial Majesty's Plenipotentiary for the Suppression of Rebellion and Governor General and Supreme Commander in and over Oversector Outer, a new kind of governorate general appointed directly by The Throne (or the Ruling Council), without any input at all from the Privy Council. Needless to say, this promotion carried with it elevation to the coveted degree of Grand Moff of the Empire. [12]

[12] Grand Moff Tarkin first appears in A New Hope, and is identified as Lieutenant Governor of Seswenna Sector as of 3 rS in Cloak of Deception. He is expressly called a "sector governor" in Revenge of the Sith, and his status as one of the earliest regional governors is confirmed in "Meet Your Regional Governors," while his status as a privy counsellor is inferred from his reminiscences in the Death Star Technical Companion of "my days in the Emperor's court." Tarkin's role as a key ideologue of the New Order is stated in Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope and the Rebellion Era Sourcebook. His term as minister of the interior is unattested, but inspired by the Death Star Technical Companion's mention that he diverted funds from "the departments of System Exploration and Public Works"; his term as a senator is likewise conjecture, based on the claim in Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope that he "appeared untouchable, both in the heat of battle and on the Senate floor." His presidency of Eriadu is unattested, as are the specific offices associated with COMPNOR and the New Order Party. His appointment as a special plenipotentiary for the suppression of the Rebellion is unattested, but based on his command of the first Death Star, in which capacity he explicitly told Darth Vader that "the Emperor has given me a free hand in this matter"; remarkably, his authority to order the destruction of a major Core World has never been questioned in any forum, even by his most ardent critics.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=122169&start=25

Like I explained earlier its a narrative to make sense of all the snippets from hundreds of EU sources, liberties were taken to fill in the gaps. Take a look at the footnote (posted above) to sift what is sourced and what is not.

Read the rest of that thread, it will give you a good understanding of how the Empire worked without all the mustache twirling.

 

[Darth Caesar]

Patroklos I as Dark Lord of the Sith would like to appoint you minister of internal affairs for my Sith Empire.